How to become a member of the Society of Ploughmen?

tcn ploughman said:

My name has already been mentioned did you not see it, we only asked for a members list through a solicitor because they refused to give us one, not as you say it wasn't against an individual. You are hiding behind a made up name.

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when Solicitors exchange letters it is a legal action as the other solicitor has to respond by law, so yes it was legal action,
with regards to the individual or group this was written as an example, and not meant to imply this is what was done, I noticed you did not pick up on the word group,
and I think you already know but the name is john saunders and has been posted on the forum many times

Ley253 said:

If they did, it mattered little, the attack was timed to perfection to cause most damage.

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This had been brewing for a very long time but, as is normal in the SOP, business is conducted in an undemocratic fashion where no changes are possible and the rank and file are treated like dirt. Now the SOP is seen to be in a position of relative financial strength the mood of the ruling junta has been strengthened even more and they will grow even more obstinate as a result.

Howard150 said:

As far as taking legal action is concerned then in real terms the 5 Directors actually took legal advice which is significantly different to legal action.

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see my above post

Ley253 said:

One other thing John. If, as the five believe, this unpleasantness had been in place for years, why wait until the society was committed to a large financial undertaking before making their complaint, and then doing their best to weaken the societies finances with legal activities? Why is one of them widely believed to have threatened to use every penny he had to leave a wasteland? And another to request his wide circle of contacts to withdraw their support for the world match funding. It is my belief that by timing their attack as they did, that it was an attack on every member of the society, in that it stood the chance of making the society unable to meet its commitments re the world match and therefore leaving the members to the possibility of being chased for any shortfall, and also depriving the members of the chance to witness a world match close to home.
If they had agreed to suspend their action until after the world match, I believe they would have improved their position no end.

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don't think the timing of the past events had anything to do with the World Match at York, in fact far from it, it was all to do with KC standing down and who would take his place,
Howard said in a previous post, that they never intended to take over the SOP, yet this was what all the trouble came about from that, if only they had accepted the majority vote on all things, then none of this would of happened,
I will go on to say that them that was voted off, had I am lead to believe done a lot of good for the sop in the past, and JP had a brilliant idea of the raffle tractor and plough, and think he did a good job with it while he was there, and his idea was praised at the AGM,

but now it is time to move on, the sop is the only national body we have, and the constant bickering about them on public forum is not doing the sport any good what so ever,
not saying they are perfect, and not saying something's need to change,
but change will take time, and the only way to make things better, is to work together,
as anyone can see, the way the 5 went about it, did not work

Pennine Ploughing said:

don't think the timing of the past events had anything to do with the World Match at York, in fact far from it, it was all to do with KC standing down and who would take his place,
Howard said in a previous post, that they never intended to take over the SOP, yet this was what all the trouble came about from that, if only they had accepted the majority vote on all things, then none of this would of happened,
I will go on to say that them that was voted off, had I am lead to believe done a lot of good for the sop in the past, and JP had a brilliant idea of the raffle tractor and plough, and think he did a good job with it while he was there, and his idea was praised at the AGM,

but now it is time to move on, the sop is the only national body we have, and the constant bickering about them on public forum is not doing the sport any good what so ever,
not saying they are perfect, and not saying something's need to change,
but change will take time, and the only way to make things better, is to work together,
as anyone can see, the way the 5 went about it, did not work

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I respect your opinion John, however....

Had it been the 5 in question or indeed any other 5, 10 or random group, then as far as the SOP goes then the current unchanged body (apart from Alan Jones now surplus to requirements) which governs the SOP is there for the duration. It is impossible to make any changes in a dictatorial society where the management makes the rules, polices the vote, and can purloin and invent proxy votes which ensure a majority on all contentious issues even before any meeting is held.
Perhaps in an ideal world where members had to attend a meeting in order to vote then things might be different.

Y

Pennine Ploughing said:

don't think the timing of the past events had anything to do with the World Match at York, in fact far from it, it was all to do with KC standing down and who would take his place,
Howard said in a previous post, that they never intended to take over the SOP, yet this was what all the trouble came about from that, if only they had accepted the majority vote on all things, then none of this would of happened,
I will go on to say that them that was voted off, had I am lead to believe done a lot of good for the sop in the past, and JP had a brilliant idea of the raffle tractor and plough, and think he did a good job with it while he was there, and his idea was praised at the AGM,

but now it is time to move on, the sop is the only national body we have, and the constant bickering about them on public forum is not doing the sport any good what so ever,
not saying they are perfect, and not saying something's need to change,
but change will take time, and the only way to make things better, is to work together,
as anyone can see, the way the 5 went about it, did not work

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Yes John, it was about the succession, the timing however was not! Remember many people (myself amongst them) felt that the society was in great danger of following its predecessor into bankruptcy by running the world match.This being the case, and one of the five being close to the fundraising system,I find no surprise in the fact that the legal costs coincided with the tractor raffle being derailed. Both happening when the society was at its financial weakest.
JP, had indeed done well, and deserves all the praise then comes his way. He also deserves the brickbats for "taking his ball and going home" (trying to discourage others from contributing to the fund)

JP has put in many hours work over the years including obtaining massive sponsorship for the Lincoln Nationals. Many who worked with him, including some prominent SOP executives were appalled at the abuse and rudeness that he received from certain people we must not mention. We have no right to expect a loyal servant to be treated in such fashion and should not be surprised when they kick back.

Ley253 said:

One other thing John. If, as the five believe, this unpleasantness had been in place for years, why wait until the society was committed to a large financial undertaking before making their complaint, and then doing their best to weaken the societies finances with legal activities? Why is one of them widely believed to have threatened to use every penny he had to leave a wasteland? And another to request his wide circle of contacts to withdraw their support for the world match funding. It is my belief that by timing their attack as they did, that it was an attack on every member of the society, in that it stood the chance of making the society unable to meet its commitments re the world match and therefore leaving the members to the possibility of being chased for any shortfall, and also depriving the members of the chance to witness a world match close to home.
If they had agreed to suspend their action until after the world match, I believe they would have improved their position no end.

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Harry you do have a certain propensity for talking utter drivel.

The issue was not so much the succession but more the downright corrupt and whatsmore illegal handling of that succession by the executive. Not only did they try and hoodwink the directors, they actually tried to con the members that they had acted legally and in the members best interests.

They (the 5 dissenting Directors) did actually propose suspension af any hostilities till after the world match but the Executive in their infinite wisdom refused the proposal.

Ley253 said:

Y

Yes John, it was about the succession, the timing however was not! Remember many people (myself amongst them) felt that the society was in great danger of following its predecessor into bankruptcy by running the world match.This being the case, and one of the five being close to the fundraising system,I find no surprise in the fact that the legal costs coincided with the tractor raffle being derailed. Both happening when the society was at its financial weakest.
JP, had indeed done well, and deserves all the praise then comes his way. He also deserves the brickbats for "taking his ball and going home" (trying to discourage others from contributing to the fund)

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So the timing of the succession issue and the World match were unconnected ! Sorry Harry but they were totally connected and the fact that the resolution of the succession issue was bundled through with undue haste brought it into even closer proximity.

Howard150 said:

Harry you do have a certain propensity for talking utter drivel.

The issue was not so much the succession but more the downright corrupt and whatsmore illegal handling of that succession by the executive. Not only did they try and hoodwink the directors, they actually tried to con the members that they had acted legally and in the members best interests.

They did actually propose suspension af any hostilities till after the world match but the Executive in their infinite wisdom refused the proposal.

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With all due respect, and i bow to your wisdom,
can you please go into detail on how the sop did as you put it illegal activities for them that don't know

Howard150 said:

Harry you do have a certain propensity for talking utter drivel.

The issue was not so much the succession but more the downright corrupt and whatsmore illegal handling of that succession by the executive. Not only did they try and hoodwink the directors, they actually tried to con the members that they had acted legally and in the members best interests.

They did actually propose suspension af any hostilities till after the world match but the Executive in their infinite wisdom refused the proposal.

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Utter drivel? You have your opinion, and I have mine,shall we leave it at that? But please remember that many a person shouting "Wolf" has been accused of talking drivel.

I tell you what, @Farmerpickle, after reading this lot, why not encourage your 16 year old mate to take up golf instead...?

Pennine Ploughing said:

With all due respect, and i bow to your wisdom,
can you please go into detail on how the sop did as you put it illegal activities for them that don't know

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Quite simply John - in their apparent rush to force the succession through, the Directors were balloted by post. According to company law, the response for such a postal ballot of Directors on an issue such as the succession, needs to be 100%, far less in the actual event.
Several salient points here - all which contribute to the general underhandedness of how the situation was managed.
1. The Directors were not advised that they were being balloted - they were under the impression that it was being used to gauge the feeling of the Directors.
2. Regulations governing the advertising and time limit of the postal vote were more than likely breached as well
3. The letter sent out to directors led them by the nose into accepting the current incumbent, rather than choosing the other very badly presented alternative.
4. The members were advised within a month of the AGM 2015 that the Directors had decided overwhelmingly to promote the current CEO, despite the members being advised by the Chairman that the decision was theirs to make, and had 2 years to make it.
5. The membership were misled with regard to the result of the postal ballot of the Directors. They were advised that 83% of the Directors were in favour of promoting the current CEO. In real terms the actual percentage was much closer to 50%.
6. The letters sent out to members by the past CEO in conjunction with the current CEO at various times, both demonising the 5 Directors and urging members to send proxy votes to be used by the Chairman are of questionable legality both in leading the electorate by the nose in relation to voting and also by demonising fellow directors.
5. Up to this day there has been no valid reason given for the dismissal of said Directors.
6. Minutes of any meetings are scant at best and are never a true reflection of what actually happened at the meeting which the minutes appertain to. This is of questionable legality as is the fact that both the advisor to the executive and a cohort regularly sign these minutes off as being a true and accurate record. This is one of the most significant points in that there is no actual record of Alan Jones misleading the electorate.

Need any more?

Ley253 said:

Utter drivel? You have your opinion, and I have mine,shall we leave it at that? But please remember that many a person shouting "Wolf" has been accused of talking drivel.

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Considering your manifold and varied comment on this issue Harry, then it beggars belief in that over the last 20 years or so, the contribution which you have made in terms of subscription revenue to the SOP is minimal or only slightly above nil.
This leads on to another point in that all the opinions you so readily espouse on here with such belief, are hardly your opinions but those of a significant other.
You have been had in this manner before Harry.

The opinions and beliefs are, I can assure you, all mine.I believe its by the grace of god that the charity commissioners did not become involved.

As Howard stated , the timing of the succession issue and its conduct was engineered by the junta, not the five. Now can the members expect change that will make this a better society? Pigs might fly!

arcobob said:

As Howard stated , the timing of the succession issue and its conduct was engineered by the junta, not the five. Now can the members expect change that will make this a better society? Pigs might fly!

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If that is correct, then the society would have asked the five to start their legal action!
For what its worth, the most qualified person for the job got it! She knows all the industry and sponsorship contacts, and they know her,add in the fact that she was catapulted into it early by Kens ill health, and she did prove she could do the job.
I may be wrong, but I now believe that there was a hidden agenda.The stated prize,a chief exec election, was just not worth the bad feeling and financial costs involved.
To conclude, whatever is written here will have no effect whatsoever on the society. That being the case, let us all calm down and see what happens, and, if we want something to change, make the fact known in the appropriate place,and, if nothing happens, ask why, and keep asking!

So the way to avoid ill feeling that has been allowed to fester unattended is to ignore it, circumnavigate it, and pull of a stunt which is at the very least unethical and unconstitutional. This is just more of the same and solves nothing, moreover it is the type of stunt that will be performed again and again. I think you know this Harry but you live in hopes.

arcobob said:

So the way to avoid ill feeling that has been allowed to fester unattended is to ignore it, circumnavigate it, and pull of a stunt which is at the very least unethical and unconstitutional. This is just more of the same and solves nothing, moreover it is the type of stunt that will be performed again and again. I think you know this Harry but you live in hopes.

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I do live in hope, its true, and I believe the new(ish) broom should be given a chance. For one thing I dont think the "My way, or no way" attitude will be so noticeable, time will tell.
Does all this ill feeling really exist among members, or it it the harboured dream of a disgruntled collection of ex members? The five lost a vote of members, that would seem to imply that a majority of the membership is reasonably happy with the way things are.I know of the claims of skulduggery, but people who were there paint a different picture. For example, the poster who claimed he was told to sit down and shut up, was indeed told this, but from the back of the room, not the front.
I have been told that meetings are recorded, I have suggested that in future, the recording be video, this will be a much more accurate record, and can be used to check up on claims such as the one mentioned, and even result in action being taken against perpetrators. However, I do not like the fact that written records seem to be taken from the recording, that way, personal interpretation creeps in, and then the record is no longer accurate.

Ley253 said:

I do live in hope, its true, and I believe the new(ish) broom should be given a chance. For one thing I dont think the "My way, or no way" attitude will be so noticeable, time will tell.
Does all this ill feeling really exist among members, or it it the harboured dream of a disgruntled collection of ex members? The five lost a vote of members, that would seem to imply that a majority of the membership is reasonably happy with the way things are.I know of the claims of skulduggery, but people who were there paint a different picture. For example, the poster who claimed he was told to sit down and shut up, was indeed told this, but from the back of the room, not the front.
I have been told that meetings are recorded, I have suggested that in future, the recording be video, this will be a much more accurate record, and can be used to check up on claims such as the one mentioned, and even result in action being taken against perpetrators. However, I do not like the fact that written records seem to be taken from the recording, that way, personal interpretation creeps in, and then the record is no longer accurate.

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I am one of the disgruntled ex members but, like many I have met who are in the same boat as me, had deep misgivings about the day to day running of the SOP rather than the deeper political issues that have emerged only more recently. There is a saying "look after the pennies and the pounds take care of themselves", in other words take care of the smaller issues and the larger ones will take care of themselves. Treat people with disdain when a question arises and the knives will soon be sharpened and the underlying faults exposed. Like the EU, arrogance leads to resentment which is difficult to quell.