CHP

ski

Member
Does anyone have experiance of CHP units? I have a good use for the power and heat, especially as it may mean I do not have to pay for a better electric supply which Scottish Power have done a budget estimate for at over £60K. I would not need it to be grid connected unless I go over about 90kw electric and 250kw heat.
I am concerned about fuel supply, we have about 50 acres of woods but I don't want to decimate it. 3 phase electric is preferable but I'm not sure how any suppliers do 3 phase units. Any lessons learned would be great to hear about.
Thanks
 

f0ster

Member
it depends on the type of chp. some of them that produce heat/electric cannot be easily turned off if the heat demand dries up. if you are able to use all of the heat and a good proportion of the electric then they are worth while. if you cannot use the heat continuously then a biomass boiler with an ORC might be a better bet because they can stop start with demand but the ORC are expensive. being able to use the heat is the key to it
 

ski

Member
I can use the heat in four main ways, heating poultry sheds, drying grain, drying wood chip, drying poultry litter and a little for two homes. I think from my initial calculations I will not have any surplus heat overall, and if there is surplus at certain times the poultry sheds can absorb it as they can ventilate harder which is no bad thing. I don't know what an ORC is? care to enlighten me. What concerns me is the virtual continuous running these units require and claim they can fulfil, but running a big engine on gas for 8000 hrs per annum seems a very high percentage to achieve and I don't know of anybody actually running any CHP installation.
 

Fowler VF

Member
Location
Herefordshire
I run six Spanner CHP's, 50kw electric each. Wood chip to syngas. Issue for you will be running them in "Island mode" if you don't have mains. You need 3 phase power to wind them up and you need to figure out a way of actually using what you produce at all times, the engines will put out the power constantly and it has to go somewhere. Need a very good electrician to figure it out for you, but it could probably be done.
 

Fowler VF

Member
Location
Herefordshire
Misunderstood your original post, you were talking about extra grid connection not a new one. So if you have three phase then Spanner units will deliver. Just be aware that RHI on the heat output has almost halved over the last 12 months and that electricity support for this technology is ROC, which closed to new entrants in March. Can still stack up if you have your own wood, you have need for the electric and have need for the heat. Each unit is circa 50kw electric and 100kw heat. Capital cost including plant and installation can be less than £200k per unit depending on site and installation.

I don't sell (you deal direct with Spanner) or do installation but as the first ever UK installation (there are now about 100 units in the UK) do act as a demo site for Spanner.
 

f0ster

Member
they might have improved them now but I went to see a spanner unit in operation, it was doing the hours but it was a "very" hands on machine that required a lot of user technical input, and the factory were not as helpful as they could be due to not many engineers with the language skills, with an orc unit you need a boiler that can run at 130 deg (altho there are lower temp orc units) the orc people then install the unit to your boiler. not sure about exact price but a 90kw unit is about 300k. they are not the most efficient of things, less than 10%, but if you installing a 1mw boiler adding an orc can be a viable option provided you have a use for the heat and as much of the electric as poss. and as the boiler is a built and designed machine for heat it has the ability to start and stop as required which is not the case for syngas units, with the volter machine it has to be running constantly because you light it manually. spoke to an engineer recently about the E3 pellet chp. (25kw elec 60kw heat) it is needing a section of stainless tube in the burn chamber welded in to place every four months, he showed me photos, the tube was totally destroyed. they have to run at 900 deg.
 

PhilSL

Member
Trade
Location
Manchester
Does anyone have experiance of CHP units? I have a good use for the power and heat, especially as it may mean I do not have to pay for a better electric supply which Scottish Power have done a budget estimate for at over £60K. I would not need it to be grid connected unless I go over about 90kw electric and 250kw heat.
I am concerned about fuel supply, we have about 50 acres of woods but I don't want to decimate it. 3 phase electric is preferable but I'm not sure how any suppliers do 3 phase units. Any lessons learned would be great to hear about.
Thanks

CHP is a fairly straightforward technology and process but you do need to get the right kit and tech back up which suits your needs. Not all CHP installs are the same, although they may seem that way.

Fowler VF should be your first phone call and then go and visit the site and see the Spanner working.

Gas CHP units can be utilised on site, but again a greater understanding of what your needs are, current energy profile and operation need to be understood 9onsite feedstock available etc), before a suitable technology could even be advised upon. With gas CHP it's about what the 'spark spread' is? (Cost of gas to produce kW unit of power).

Dependant on how much poultry litter you have as a feedstock, you could use an incinerator with heat harvesting and power generation, to heat the poultry sheds and provide additional power.

If you do go for whichever CHP, don't forget to get a grid connection sorted and export the excess power on a PPA to increase your revenue returns. (Which we can help you you with;)).
 

f0ster

Member
The spanner chp is very labour intensive so be prepared. It requires a lot of technical intensive labour input. And the factory support is not always there.
 
But are any other makes any less work in reality? Ours are on target to hit 7500 hours in year one (5k now) i would not be installing now that the roc tariff has gone


QUOTE="f0ster, post: 3853180, member: 66372"]The spanner chp is very labour intensive so be prepared. It requires a lot of technical intensive labour input. And the factory support is not always there.[/QUOTE]
 

renewablejohn

Member
Location
lancs
But are any other makes any less work in reality? Ours are on target to hit 7500 hours in year one (5k now) i would not be installing now that the roc tariff has gone


QUOTE="f0ster, post: 3853180, member: 66372"]The spanner chp is very labour intensive so be prepared. It requires a lot of technical intensive labour input. And the factory support is not always there.
[/QUOTE]

I will stick with thermal oil.
 

PhilSL

Member
Trade
Location
Manchester
Some useful pointers here, but sadly not very encouraging!

On the Spanner system, I know the owner of the company who has installed quite a few of them and provides a full support on each install. The kit itself, works.

It all depends on what you want to achieve with the CHP? Taken the £60k quote from Scottish Power, reduced electricity costs. As you have a feedstock supply in the poultry waste - this could be utilised, reducing running costs of any tech even further. It's all about crunching the numbers and then working what tech is the best to use.
 

Fowler VF

Member
Location
Herefordshire
The spanner chp is very labour intensive so be prepared. It requires a lot of technical intensive labour input. And the factory support is not always there.

I think that too many people have assumed that running any mini power station would be easy, "plug and play", "fit and forget". This applies to the entire range of technologies and the range of makes. There are a lot of AD units out there that aren't performing as well as they could. This sector now divides into the operators that already knew or have begun to realise that they need to work a bit for their money and the other set that have been shocked by how much they need to do and learn. Its becoming very obvious that the good operators are performing better all the time and finding new improvements and efficiencies and the rest are struggling to keep it going. Absolutely the same applies to gasification CHP's; they were never going to be the sort of machines that you stuck in a shed and looked at once in a while. Personally I am happier to deal with a few mechanical issues and tweeks in an environment that only has wood chip and a bit of ash running around than an AD unit where everything seems to be running in shite!!

A bit like anything else in farming, the performance difference in all sectors is between the ones who have learned what to do and are prepared to put the time in and those that just expect it to happen for them. The beauty of the CHPs is that at least there is a very good financial reward for all your efforts. A lot less disheartening than milking cows every day for a price that is below the cost of production, or keeping sheep and cattle for the pleasure of their company.

8,000 hours run time for any CHP gasifier is a very ambitious target. Most German units are running quite a bit less than this, some by design some by default. 8,000 hours is achievable, but it puts you up in the big same arena as going for really big farming yields and will only come from a lot of work, a lot of understanding and never missing anything out. 7 to 7,500 hours run time is for the rest of us mere mortals! To be fair to Spanner, if you bought the kit direct from them they would have spent far more time telling you why you shouldn't have a machine than bragging up its capabilities. I have seen the Spanner guys actually refuse to take sales orders from people who they felt were not going to be able to manage to run them well. Spanner always said they would not have a team of engineers running round in vans, they don't even have this in Germany. They only want to sell to operators with sufficient mechanical knowledge and aptitude to keep them going. The Spanner units were considerably cheaper than other makes because full back up and hand holding was never part of the deal. Other makes were considerably more money because they seemed to be offering more of a support package. Anyone buying gasification CHP had to weigh up whether they could understand, operate, service and maintain the units themselves or whether they paid the extra money for a make that maybe promised more reliability and more back up.

ORC efficiency is always going to be low. And at 10% or so struggles to fit any of the Ofgem tariffs very well. If you have a genuine use for all that spare heat and only need a bit of electric then I guess it could still stack up. Should be less work, but less work = less income.
 
Location
Nationwide
Does anyone have experiance of CHP units? I have a good use for the power and heat, especially as it may mean I do not have to pay for a better electric supply which Scottish Power have done a budget estimate for at over £60K. I would not need it to be grid connected unless I go over about 90kw electric and 250kw heat.
I am concerned about fuel supply, we have about 50 acres of woods but I don't want to decimate it. 3 phase electric is preferable but I'm not sure how any suppliers do 3 phase units. Any lessons learned would be great to hear about.
Thanks
Hi Ski,
Did you manage to solve your grid connection issue?
 

renewablejohn

Member
Location
lancs
Some useful pointers here, but sadly not very encouraging!

Really need a bit more information about the land and the renewable potential before giving blanket advice. Just as an example in my own case I live on top of a hill with a stream going through my land a bit of woodland and South facing open fields. So have great wind potential but nimby's stop me. The hydro is useful but seasonal from Oct to Mar. Solar again useful but seasonal May to Sept. Woodland great but not sustainable by itself. Problem variable power required on demand 24/7.

Answers on a postcard.
 

f0ster

Member
I can take you to see a Volter CHP and a Binder boiler with an ORC on it in the Dumfries area, I do not sell these but I have installed them if you are still interested.
 
Tags
gas

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 80 42.3%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 66 34.9%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 15.9%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,292
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
Top