Chemical prices and secrecy

Clive · Jul 27, 2017

Feldspar said:
So do you think the Chemical Price Tracker thread had much effect then? It seems like that should have had a similar effect, although probably only to bring the price down to the lowest level that others had been offered rather than breaking new ground.

TFF in general is not liked amongst some parts of the trade because its ability to facilitate communication over prices for farmers does cause them issue every day I believe.

Threads like the chem price tracker are tolerated and dismissed as prices not being "real" or "last month's price" etc so they get away with that - when faced with a place online where you can actually buy at that price then it seems things are different and the reality can no longer be denied

Fact is this is the way the world works now, UK ag supply needs to drag itself out of the dark ages and understand that we do all talk, we do dicus prices and etc openly these days

irony is the companies that have embraced TFF and engaged / advertised here love it and do well out of being part of it

Farm Marketplace is simply an extension / logical next step of what TFF has changed and achieved to date, anyone who thinks they can stop it is VERY mistaken, the days of paying the more traditional farming media to do as they are told and getting away with murder are gone !

Collectively the members and traffic here has power, as farmers we just have to learn how to use that wisely

Clive · Jul 27, 2017

Everyone on Twitter, Facebook etc should do their bit and spread this thread far and wide please, everyone in this industry should know whats going on and we can all do our bit as farmers to help make change

The French do it by blocking depots and motorways with tractors, we can all do it with a few clicks of a mouse if we can be bothered

go to post #1 on this thread and click the number and do it !

Sussex Martin · Jul 27, 2017

I have a number of manufacturers that forbid me to publish the prices I sell at! I'm allowed to sell at whatever price I like, just not able to publish those prices. We get around this by publishing a trade price list and discounting those prices by an amount to get to our true selling price.
So all you need to do @Clive is to publish a price list at double what the prices are and pm any buyers and tell them that their discount is 50%.

Clive · Jul 27, 2017

Sussex Martin said:
I have a number of manufacturers that forbid me to publish the prices I sell at! I'm allowed to sell at whatever price I like, just not able to publish those prices. We get around this by publishing a trade price list and discounting those prices by an amount to get to our true selling price.
So all you need to do @Clive is to publish a price list at double what the prices are and pm any buyers and tell them that their discount is 50%.

what a stupid thing to have to do

do tesco make you do this to get the price of a loaf of bread in case Asda find out !

I don't think the manufacturers can stop you publishing your price (legally) as you say though that doesn't seem to stop this being widespread in UK agriculture

Feldspar · Jul 27, 2017

I still don't quite see what they can get you on, @Clive. If the manufacturer is onside then what's to stop you publishing prices online?

I can see that the distributor could be lent on by other distributors putting pressure on other manufacturers / same manufacturer to choke their supply.

Sussex Martin · Jul 27, 2017

Clive said:
what a stupid thing to have to do

do tesco make you do this to get the price of a loaf of bread in case Asda find out !

I don't think the manufacturers can stop you publishing your price (legally) as you say though that doesn't seem to stop this being widespread in UK agriculture

Legally no they can't stop me from doing so but they can stop supplying and put me out of business.

Clive · Jul 27, 2017

Sussex Martin said:
Legally no they can't stop me from doing so but they can stop supplying and put me out of business.

exactly what happens, you are just one of many - it needs to change

Farm Marketplace can make it happen as long as it has farmer support

quattro · Jul 27, 2017

Clive said:
exactly what happens, you are just one of many - it needs to change

Farm Marketplace can make it happen as long as it has farmer support

Clive keep persevering with it

J 1177 · Jul 27, 2017

As farmers we are constantly told to modernise and change with the times............. it seems the ones that are living in the past are the ag chem companies. If we as farmers are going to have to operate in a global market where we compete against other farmers so should they.

Steevo · Jul 27, 2017

Clive said:
Trouble is as farmers we really don't help ourselves and we have a barter system deeply embedded

Rather Than just buying on Farm Marketplace at a price they like its seems a lot just wanna use it to beat up their existing supplier asking them ti match the MP price

when the supplier cant match it as they want to maintain their big margins they call their supplier of manufacturer and insist that MP supply is cut

This happened this week, farmer wants a big order of fertiliser, sees Farm marketplace price is £16/ below the price quoted by his usual merchant so calls them and asks them to match, they can't In this case I'm glad to say the MP supply stood firm on their price

so what happens next ! does the farmer pay more than he needs to ? or does the order go through Farm Marketplace ?

I know as a farmer what I would do !

We need a mindset change here as farmers, if you see a price you like then but at it, get away from the dutch auction style of doing business that does not benefit any of us in the long run

It all comes back to service. If their existing supplier provides great service, it might well be worth sticking with them.

The milkman lost out to just the above scenario.....it just depends who the existing supplier is and their ethos. I would say large multinational vs. smaller independent....but that isn't necessarily true. Take my John Lewis comparison - some things are worth paying the extra for.

Clive · Jul 27, 2017

Feldspar said:
I still don't quite see what they can get you on, @Clive. If the manufacturer is onside then what's to stop you publishing prices online?

I can see that the distributor could be lent on by other distributors putting pressure on other manufacturers / same manufacturer to choke their supply.

without me saying any more you have answered your own question (maybe)

Clive · Jul 27, 2017

Steevo said:
It all comes back to service. If their existing supplier provides great service, it might well be worth sticking with them.

The milkman lost out to just the above scenario.....it just depends who the existing supplier is and their ethos. I would say large multinational vs. smaller independent....but that isn't necessarily true. Take my John Lewis comparison - some things are worth paying the extra for.

I agree, its about having the choice though and making service worth more (as John Lewis have done to use your example)

Guy Smith · Jul 27, 2017

milkloss said:
Sounds like you've got a rare opportunity to get the evidence to show there is price fixing occurring. Make the most of it.

I know you are not a member but this is a great chance for the NFU to get involved and show just what it can do for its members and the greater good, what do you think @Guy Smith ?

I'd agree with @Goweresque that anyone with clear evidence of cartels and price fixing should go to the CMA.

I'd be interested through this forum to see how they got on.

But given the TFF appetite for conspiracy theories I'll keep an open mind.

I'm surprised some of the usual suspects on here haven't already suggested the NFU are to blame.

Clive · Jul 27, 2017

Guy Smith said:
I'd agree with @Goweresque that anyone with clear evidence of cartels and price fixing should go to the CMA.

I'd be interested through this forum to see how they got on.

But given the TFF appetite for conspiracy theories I'll keep an open mind.

I'm surprised some of the usual suspects on here haven't already suggested the NFU are to blame.

don't think its anything to do with the NFU Guy and cant really see any farmer as an individual taking it upon themselves to go to the CMA on a personal crusade, after all they have stuff like actual farming to do, however I might just do if the threats don't stop and I can capture a bit of tangible evidence

There is little doubt about what's going on, I think most farmers can see it, question is what can be done about it when so few are ultimately in control

Things will change, they always do, and those that resist change usually get left behind

Feldspar · Jul 27, 2017

Is it actually not feasible to set yourself up as a distributor, @Clive?

hindmaist · Jul 27, 2017

How much difference are we talking about here?

Clive · Jul 27, 2017

Feldspar said:
Is it actually not feasible to set yourself up as a distributor, @Clive?

there are many potential options and routes we could take

Feldspar · Jul 27, 2017

Clive said:
don't think its anything to do with the NFU Guy and cant really see any farmer as an individual taking it upon themselves to go to the CMA on a personal crusade, after all they have stuff like actual farming to do

There is little doubt about what's going on, I think most farmers can see it, question is what can be done about it when so few are ultimately in control

Things will change, they always do, and those that resist change usually get left behind

They may change eventually, but they can be held back for a long time if the vested interests are strong enough.

Also, why is this not relevant to the NFU? Surely this is something that they should use their resources to sort out on behalf of their members.

Clive · Jul 27, 2017

Feldspar said:
They may change eventually, but they can be held back for a long time if the vested interests are strong enough.

Also, why is this not to do with the NFU? Surely this is something that they should use their resources to sort out on behalf of their members.

I dare not mention the NFU or Guy will stat crying and calling me a conspiracy theorist whilst accusing me of being GUTH, Nofliping use and various other members, I'm not a NFU member so they have no obligation to me any longer

I think this is much bigger than them personally

Feldspar · Jul 27, 2017

Clive said:
I dare not mention the NFU or Guy will stat crying and calling me a conspiracy theorist whilst accusing me of being GUTH, Nofliping use and various other members, I'm not a NFU member so they have no obligation to me any longer

I think this is much bigger than them personally

Well I am an NFU member and this seems to me exactly the sort of thing that the NFU should be helping with.

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