"Stick Rule"

Ley253

Member
Location
Bath
Last night I was informed that the southern and eastern counties have imposed this "Rule", which involves the finish being measured by a steward, and large amounts of penalty points to be awarded if its considered too deep.Does anyone have any" Horses mouth", information on this?
 

Sprayer

Member
Location
South Derbyshire
Not heard about the rule but feel as host farmer for matches as frequently as the crop rotation allows that it is a good idea in principle. Occasionally I get complaints from competitors about a bad plot with a "ditch" up the middle which is the remnants of someone's furrow from 3 years previously. Some hosts stipulate no world style or reversible classes because their style always tends to be deeper and deep finishes.
Deep furrows is the reason usually given by landowners given for not wanting to host a match.
 

Ley253

Member
Location
Bath
A good idea? Its a recipe for disaster! The depth of the finish is, unlike handling and other offences, part of the judges remit.If the judges need a steward to do part of their job for them, why are they there? Also, why would a qualified judge agree to do the job, when a committee member with a tape measure and an inflated ego be able to second guess his decisions?
Another problem is here. A good judge examines a finish, sees that it is a good effort, worth perhaps sixteen points, but as its a bit deep, awards twelve.Along comes the "p...k with a stick" and awards ten penalty points, this finish is now worth two! I dont think that competitor will be back next year.
I think the way to correct the problem of deep finishes, is to make sure judges do their job, and bring to landowners and others attention, that what at first appears to be too deep may not be so when the angle of the furrows is taken into consideration. At a match last year in the south of England, a good world style finish, seven inches deep( found by adding the depth of the show and mould furrows together) was docked because the depth was measured from the furrow crest.
 

Sprayer

Member
Location
South Derbyshire
Whilst agreeing with what you are driving at Harry depth is depth and has to be levelled out to keep the host of the match on board. As venues get harder to find it is of paramount importance that this is taken into account.
Forty foot combine headers, 8mt drills and 40mt sprayers do not cope well with furrows every 14mts, my land is farmed using all of these machines and as a recently retired spraying contractor I can assure you I know.
 
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Ley253

Member
Location
Bath
I agree with your problems, and they do need sorting out. But, calling a judges integrity and knowledge into question will be a quick way to finding you have none! To cap it off, a shallow finish tends to be wide, as the furrows lie flat, and there is nothing to get a moulder from! Thats harder to fill than a deeper one which is narrow and with plenty of soil close to hand.
Things could get "entertaining" this coming season, I would not like to be the stick wielder telling Howard or ploughman 61 their jobs!
 

arcobob

Member
Location
Norfolk
A sole furrow or crumb furrow used to be just that. Assuming that it is as a result of ploughing out the bottom 50% of the penultimate furrow it cannot be more than 50% of the front furrow. I was told by a world style judge that it had to be at least 75%. No wonder they have a justifiable reputation for getting the match ploughing community a bad reputation amongst landowners.
 

Ley253

Member
Location
Bath
Well Bob, if your working in %, two 50 s and one 75 and one 25, add up to the same thing! If your ploughing at eight inches, then the finish, surrounded by twelve inch furrows will appear deep, but at best, it will only be eight inches below the original field surface.
However, my gripe does not concern the depth, or otherwise of a mans finish, Rather, it concerns the integrity and knowledge of a skilled man (the judge) being called into question, and that a competitor being penalised twice, for the one mistake. The second time by someone who is only skilled in the use of a tape measure!
For myself, were I asked to judge where this idea is in use, I would decline, were I to find out after I had judged the class, I would leave the site, taking my score sheet with me.I will not compete in any match where this idea is used.
It is no surprise that this scheme has originated in areas which wouldnt know what good ploughing is, or good judging, for that matter. I think these areas should import judges from ploughing areas which populate the plough off, that should raise the standard, and so cure the problem.
 

arcobob

Member
Location
Norfolk
I can`t follow your maths Harry but in vintage, if the final furrow on your side is 5" deep the one on the other side is 2.5" or 50 %. It is difficult to achieve anything less than 2.5" without it being a raggedy arsed mess. The remaining 2.5" contributes to the sole furrow. How can this be more than 50% of the final full furrow ?
I agree with your comments about stewards as I have no faith. This is a judges job but, having said that , a good proportion of them are useless.
 

Sprayer

Member
Location
South Derbyshire
I agree with your problems, and they do need sorting out. But, calling a judges integrity and knowledge into question will be a quick way to finding you have none! To cap it off, a shallow finish tends to be wide, as the furrows lie flat, and there is nothing to get a moulder from! Thats harder to fill than a deeper one which is narrow and with plenty of soil close to hand.
Things could get "entertaining" this coming season, I would not like to be the stick wielder telling Howard or ploughman 61 their jobs!

No need to tell Howard, he doesn't need telling, if they were all like his there wouldn't be a problem.
 

Ley253

Member
Location
Bath
I can`t follow your maths Harry but in vintage, if the final furrow on your side is 5" deep the one on the other side is 2.5" or 50 %. It is difficult to achieve anything less than 2.5" without it being a raggedy arsed mess. The remaining 2.5" contributes to the sole furrow. How can this be more than 50% of the final full furrow ?
I agree with your comments about stewards as I have no faith. This is a judges job but, having said that , a good proportion of them are useless.
Fifty % of anything is half, so a finish with 50 50, on a 8 inch depth will have 4" either side. The problem originates from the continental requirement for the moulder to be level with the major (front) furrow, the soil for that has to come from somewhere, so an unbalanced finish results.
I mentioned my concern to a match organiser this evening, and now, the stick man will only draw the judges attention to and depth problems. He will not be awarding penalty points.
 
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Howard150

Member
Location
Yorkshire
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Ley253

Member
Location
Bath
The man with the stick, would be calling them too deep, believe it or not!I would think Bobs 25% is in the show furrow, the 75% has made a really nice moulder. It must be a trick of the light, but I am sure there is a step in most of these.
 

Howard150

Member
Location
Yorkshire
Referring back to Sprayer's earlier comment on hosts reluctant to allow reversible classes - theses finishes are so much easier to fill in and level than any conventional finish. I have held several matches on my land and I can tell you that almost every conventional finish can still be seen.

In all fairness Colin, the soil on each side of a reversible finish has been ploughed in the same direction, giving a surfeit of soil where the finish ends up, whereas soil in each side of a conventional finish has been cast in opposite directions.
The skill with a conventional finish is shallowing off in plenty of time. What few ploughmen realise is the significance of shallowing your own side as well as your neighbour you joined up to.
 
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Ley253

Member
Location
Bath
To my eye, five is the best, perhaps let down by the wheelmark. Six comes in second, though does not match the work. All the rest are the same, but to a greater degree, and the work in the plots is quite badly paired.
 

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