Grassman
Member
- Location
- Derbyshire
As far as I'm aware there is an insurance that gets paid for every installation covered under Mcs. What it covers I'm not sure but it doesn'tseem to cover my issues!
CHP mis-sold / breach of contract
- Thread starter turbofarming
- Start date
akaPABLO01
Member
it'll state who the insurance backer is and the policy number on your mcs cert if you have one.
- Location
- Cumbria
My only contribution is.
With this level of capital cost, it is assumed a purchase/project contract agreement is in place ???
If so, this should be an Industry recognised contract ???
Within the terms and schedules of the Contract, all the areas you have questioned should be detailed ??
In the event of non-compliance, then the penalties agreed in the Contract should be enforced.
It would be interesting to read your response to this.
With this level of capital cost, it is assumed a purchase/project contract agreement is in place ???
If so, this should be an Industry recognised contract ???
Within the terms and schedules of the Contract, all the areas you have questioned should be detailed ??
In the event of non-compliance, then the penalties agreed in the Contract should be enforced.
It would be interesting to read your response to this.
Doing it for the kids
Member
Speak to farm energy, they have now got a team dedicated to moping up cowboys I think.
Good luck
Good luck
akaPABLO01
Member
I don't think this is the case unless additional insulation is applied. The op isn't happy with what they were told it would do minus losses to what's actually happening. The op was dazzled with returns that aren't actually appearing.
Doing it for the kids
Member
Perhaps, I read this that he was sold something that hasn't been capable of performing as he was told. Things like co2 escaping sounds quite serious!
akaPABLO01
Member
Yeah, the replacement parts and inflation of service cost has him angered as well as manpower
turbofarming
Member
Sorry all not been on here for a while.
Yes we have a contract, how do I find out if it is industry standard? It doesn't mention things like cost of parts of service increasing or what happens if the machines are just duff and dont run or ruin parts quicker.
Been in contact with NFU and solicitors so hopefully get some concrete advice soon.
Like I said we never expected the returns to be 100% and took into account there would be some losses or fluctuations, however that is not the case, there is currently no chance that the units can hit anywhere near the electrical or heat output that it was sold on. Think its about 15-20% on each but I don't have my calculations with me.
They are looking to rewire the majority of the p load before the meter, but are now telling me it cant be done due to safety unless they install a ruck of new meters which could effect ofgem.
The heat they are also looking into.
They have roundabout way admitted that the figures will never be what they promised without heavy modification.
If they do manage to get it somewhere close I will be relatively happy on that issue. But would I be justified in seeking damages for the last 15 months that it has been wrong?
As said before apart from the figures, the issues are these protective crowns melting and the safety issue with gas.
The only way I can see these parts being sorted is a total redesign of the reformer.
We do all servicing ourselves now, it's not a difficult job and we can afford to be a lot more thorough on it now.
For reference it is not co2 but co so a lot more dangerous.
Yes we have a contract, how do I find out if it is industry standard? It doesn't mention things like cost of parts of service increasing or what happens if the machines are just duff and dont run or ruin parts quicker.
Been in contact with NFU and solicitors so hopefully get some concrete advice soon.
Like I said we never expected the returns to be 100% and took into account there would be some losses or fluctuations, however that is not the case, there is currently no chance that the units can hit anywhere near the electrical or heat output that it was sold on. Think its about 15-20% on each but I don't have my calculations with me.
They are looking to rewire the majority of the p load before the meter, but are now telling me it cant be done due to safety unless they install a ruck of new meters which could effect ofgem.
The heat they are also looking into.
They have roundabout way admitted that the figures will never be what they promised without heavy modification.
If they do manage to get it somewhere close I will be relatively happy on that issue. But would I be justified in seeking damages for the last 15 months that it has been wrong?
As said before apart from the figures, the issues are these protective crowns melting and the safety issue with gas.
The only way I can see these parts being sorted is a total redesign of the reformer.
We do all servicing ourselves now, it's not a difficult job and we can afford to be a lot more thorough on it now.
For reference it is not co2 but co so a lot more dangerous.
akaPABLO01
Member
Have you had the manufacturer check the system, reads like defective parts and how much is downtime contributing to losses?
Altering the original install with more heat meters or moving them should contravene original accreditation with ofgem I suspect. Going from past experience when I had to adjust the sld they insisted on new application (ofgem) albeit, it hadn't been signed off by ofgem. But I still suspect this would be your case.
turbofarming
Member
Yeah manufacturer has been over twice and totally tore down and rebuilt each machine. At the time they blamed servicing which was being undertaken by installers.
Now we service ourselves and have less day to day issues.
Yeah im not keen at all to have to redo an application after the last one took 12 months, and 15 months in no sign of rocs accreditation.
Now we service ourselves and have less day to day issues.
Yeah im not keen at all to have to redo an application after the last one took 12 months, and 15 months in no sign of rocs accreditation.
akaPABLO01
Member
Did you receive any correspondence from the manufacturer stating necessary service guidelines hadn't been followed by the team in that sense?
That'll be your smoking gun although, parts failing more often then should is a tad worrying considering the manufacturer rebuilt it don't you think.
from my experience if the installation hasn't been followed to manufacturers specific instruction this automatically voids the warranty. If they've rebuilt it then this leave the questions
A: was the installer really to blame?
B: is the product actually fit for purpose?
Seems you have two angles and I'm leaning towards B
turbofarming
Member
To be fair it came accross as manufacturer trying to blame all problems on servicing which cannot have been the case. I think all guidelines were followed just not thoroughly enough. They had 1 man spending maybe 6-7 hrs on the less intensive service, whereas to do everything as well as I think it needs, it is taking us 2 men about 8-9 hours. The installers never had formal training themselves despite asking the manufactures numerous times.
Since taking it on ourselves we have less issues with things like pressures, tar build up etc, but parts still failing. Mainly due to not being a good enough grade of steel I think.
From what Ive been told its just a simple mild steel this crowns are made of, and expected to hold integrity at ~1200 deg.
Manufacturer seemed to have no qualms at all about installation. The units are prebuilt as much as possible and come ready in a container that just needs hooking up. When I say they rebuilt them I mean they tore everything down as far as possible for thorough inspection and cleaning.
I don't know if im not coming across clear here or not but this is where I hold blame:
A: Installer/Seller - Figures sold to us are impossible to reach, even if it was not constant, there is no way the units will do the outputs they told us it would.
This is due to 2 reasons, parasitic load of the electrics not been subtracted from generation targets, and the engine not producing enough heat. The first I would say is the fault of the installer who forgot to remove the p load figures, the heat I believe the installers were missold this themselves potentially as I have seen documentation from manufacturer claiming outputs inline with what we were sold.
They are doing their best to rectify both but progress is slow and we are unsure if it is possible yet.
Also frustrated about service cost, but whatever we will go it alone instead.
B: Manufacturer needs to redesign the reformer/burn chamber either out of a different material (ceramics or some sort of fire brick) to stop us having to constantly replace the protective crowns which stop the burn chamber walls cracking. Noone is even sure if this is actually helping as I think there are about 6+ other reformers on same units which have cracked after having the protections installed.
Since taking it on ourselves we have less issues with things like pressures, tar build up etc, but parts still failing. Mainly due to not being a good enough grade of steel I think.
From what Ive been told its just a simple mild steel this crowns are made of, and expected to hold integrity at ~1200 deg.
Manufacturer seemed to have no qualms at all about installation. The units are prebuilt as much as possible and come ready in a container that just needs hooking up. When I say they rebuilt them I mean they tore everything down as far as possible for thorough inspection and cleaning.
I don't know if im not coming across clear here or not but this is where I hold blame:
A: Installer/Seller - Figures sold to us are impossible to reach, even if it was not constant, there is no way the units will do the outputs they told us it would.
This is due to 2 reasons, parasitic load of the electrics not been subtracted from generation targets, and the engine not producing enough heat. The first I would say is the fault of the installer who forgot to remove the p load figures, the heat I believe the installers were missold this themselves potentially as I have seen documentation from manufacturer claiming outputs inline with what we were sold.
They are doing their best to rectify both but progress is slow and we are unsure if it is possible yet.
Also frustrated about service cost, but whatever we will go it alone instead.
B: Manufacturer needs to redesign the reformer/burn chamber either out of a different material (ceramics or some sort of fire brick) to stop us having to constantly replace the protective crowns which stop the burn chamber walls cracking. Noone is even sure if this is actually helping as I think there are about 6+ other reformers on same units which have cracked after having the protections installed.
akaPABLO01
Member
A tricky situation. I would go after the manufacturer but, I imagine this would be very costly as the company is abroad?
Cheap steel seems the biggest issue with failing heat suppression to the point were you may even consider getting a specialised steel fabricating company out to build you stronger parts, instead of lavishing lawyers with money and results you may not get/back.
I doubt ofgem would notice any modifications and I'm sure both solutions would be equally expensive?
You say that you're only reaching 20/30%, what is the % factor when downtime is accounted?
Cheap steel seems the biggest issue with failing heat suppression to the point were you may even consider getting a specialised steel fabricating company out to build you stronger parts, instead of lavishing lawyers with money and results you may not get/back.
I doubt ofgem would notice any modifications and I'm sure both solutions would be equally expensive?
You say that you're only reaching 20/30%, what is the % factor when downtime is accounted?
turbofarming
Member
That's correct.
I don't think anyone wants to really get lawyers involved unless it's a last resort.
I would definitely even be interested to look at finding some sort of specialist who could redesign parts or even the whole reformer if it was going to be significantly cost effective, 19 years is a long time replacing it. I can't speak for other owners but I suspect a few probably would be similarly interested.
Problem is I suspect one of the best suited companies for that sort of job would be the manufacturers anyway, they just don't want to know!
I don't think anyone wants to really get lawyers involved unless it's a last resort.
I would definitely even be interested to look at finding some sort of specialist who could redesign parts or even the whole reformer if it was going to be significantly cost effective, 19 years is a long time replacing it. I can't speak for other owners but I suspect a few probably would be similarly interested.
Problem is I suspect one of the best suited companies for that sort of job would be the manufacturers anyway, they just don't want to know!
Fowler VF
Member
- Location
- Herefordshire
"internal stainless parts replaced"
And therein lies part of the answer. At first sight it looks like a good idea to make components inside a very hot machine out of a tough substance like some form of stainless alloy. It will certainly corrode a lot less, but then again a number of manufacturers seem to have forgotten their basics about some of the other properties of stainless. Its a lot harder and potentially more brittle than other steels, a number of these internal failures on certain makes of gasifiers seem to be cracks rather than erosion; fancy materials like this don't seem to cope very well with the stresses of being very hot on one side and colder on the other in cycles. So ironically it might well not be "cheap steel" that is the issue, but too good a steel. Old time engineering wisdom made things like coal fired steam boilers out of mild steel boiler plate, soft and malleable, to overcome stress fractures, if erosion became a problem then they lined them with refractory fire brick material. Some modern day manufacturers seem to know all about this; some don't. Sometimes we ignore the lessons of engineering history at our peril!!
And therein lies part of the answer. At first sight it looks like a good idea to make components inside a very hot machine out of a tough substance like some form of stainless alloy. It will certainly corrode a lot less, but then again a number of manufacturers seem to have forgotten their basics about some of the other properties of stainless. Its a lot harder and potentially more brittle than other steels, a number of these internal failures on certain makes of gasifiers seem to be cracks rather than erosion; fancy materials like this don't seem to cope very well with the stresses of being very hot on one side and colder on the other in cycles. So ironically it might well not be "cheap steel" that is the issue, but too good a steel. Old time engineering wisdom made things like coal fired steam boilers out of mild steel boiler plate, soft and malleable, to overcome stress fractures, if erosion became a problem then they lined them with refractory fire brick material. Some modern day manufacturers seem to know all about this; some don't. Sometimes we ignore the lessons of engineering history at our peril!!