The most important thing is that you care

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
I recognise this description, because these were the arguments arrayed against Welsh devolution 20 years ago.

Two points arise:

1. In the light of subsequent experience, what I've learnt is that devolution improves outcomes for us because it improves local accountability. That's why no one (save a few right wing extremists) wishes to abandon devolution, and why it has been a success.

If it costs more, so be it.

2. The fear of wasting money is typically an English preoccupation, being part of the national character. Policies as diverse as defence, education, foreign aid, all are permeated with this fear, somehow, of money being spent.

Is it, perhaps, a function of national decline?

I'm not advocating profligacy, but I notice that no other nationality abroad appears so preoccupied with the cost of things.

It's not so much a fear of money being spent but a fear of the money running out.

Running a small business with nobody to bail us out if we run out of money does instil a sense of caution and an aversion to wasting money. Ultimately this same situation applies to the economy. While you can say "if it costs more than so be it" if it costs more than you can reasonably recoup through taxation then you truly are into a spiral of decline. You can only extend loans and credit for so long but one day people might decide they don't want to lend to the government anymore. The government becomes bankrupt and cannot pay all those lovely public salaries and pensions never mind fund services. If you think it can't happen look at Greece.
 

Walterp

Member
Location
Pembrokeshire
So you are all for power to be taken to Wales for local accountability but want power to say in Brussels which is well a few more miles away than where the UK parliament is in England
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
The power is already there, my myopic friend.

It's not coming back, as the Florence speech has proved.
 

Walterp

Member
Location
Pembrokeshire
It's not so much a fear of money being spent but a fear of the money running out.

Running a small business with nobody to bail us out if we run out of money does instil a sense of caution and an aversion to wasting money. Ultimately this same situation applies to the economy. While you can say "if it costs more than so be it" if it costs more than you can reasonably recoup through taxation then you truly are into a spiral of decline. You can only extend loans and credit for so long but one day people might decide they don't want to lend to the government anymore. The government becomes bankrupt and cannot pay all those lovely public salaries and pensions never mind fund services. If you think it can't happen look at Greece.
The answer, then, is to increase taxes.

You can't roll back the State - it is Mrs Thatcher's lesson to subsequent generations of politicians.

[This is an analysis, not an endorsement].
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
All I ask of government is to provide efficient services, fairness and standardisation across the country, and to keep taxes down to sustainable levels.

Adding yet another devolved layer in England would do nothing to achieve this. It would cost more for no improvement. We already have too many layers of government as it is, though much work is being done here to amalgamate and combine functions vertically. Each district council used to have it own planning department, now this is a county level function saving costs and achieving better consistency across the county.

So why don't I want government by Brussels? Because it's too far away, they speak a different language, have a different culture and ethos.

There is no "one size fits all suit" that fits across the EU.

There is a "one size fits all suit" that can be worn across the UK even if it might be a bit tight for some.

It's what is reasonable and pragmatic that matters, not idealism. Governments evolve. They can't be engineered in the way that the EU would like to create an artificial federal superstate. Not saying it won't come eventually, in one form or another, but forcing now as Mr Juncker tries to do, is a very dangerous experiment.
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
The answer, then, is to increase taxes.

You can't roll back the State - it is Mrs Thatcher's lesson to subsequent generations of politicians.

[This is an analysis, not an endorsement].

On the face of it, yes increase taxes. But eventually you reach a level of taxation where people lose motivation to create wealth and have no profit left for reinvestment and the economy shrinks, the tax receipts decline etc. In some ways we are already in this situation. It takes a real optimist to open a business in the UK such is the weight of regulation and taxation. Everything we do is mired in red tape.

Ever increasing taxes lead to a communist state. Eventually everybody is working for the state. Then we see the shift of power away from the "capitalists" and towards the political appointees. You are then accountable to a political appointee rather than to a balance sheet. Money might be the root of all evil, but as a system of producing some sort of order, it's not the worst one around, tending to reward work, caution and sobriety, rather than political nepotism.
 

Pond digger

Never Forgotten
Honorary Member
Location
East Yorkshire
I recognise this description, because these were the arguments arrayed against Welsh devolution 20 years ago.

Two points arise:

1. In the light of subsequent experience, what I've learnt is that devolution improves outcomes for us because it improves local accountability. That's why no one (save a few right wing extremists) wishes to abandon devolution, and why it has been a success.

If it costs more, so be it.

2. The fear of wasting money is typically an English preoccupation, being part of the national character. Policies as diverse as defence, education, foreign aid, all are permeated with this fear, somehow, of money being spent.

Is it, perhaps, a function of national decline?

I'm not advocating profligacy, but I notice that no other nationality abroad appears so preoccupied with the cost of things.
So, Welsh devolution has resulted in greater local accountability, which is good. Yet the same argument doesn't apply to the EU and Brexit? Hypocritical, perhaps?
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
So, Welsh devolution has resulted in greater local accountability, which is good. Yet the same argument doesn't apply to the EU and Brexit? Hypocritical, perhaps?
no brexit is good as well that's why the biggest part of those that voted in wales voted for it, they knew it would result in greater local accountability
good on the welsh
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 80 42.3%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 66 34.9%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 15.9%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,293
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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