Brexit postponed

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
Despite denials there really does seem to be a fair amount of vitriol and would-be gloating from our 'friends' abroad. In a much earlier thread I recall that I attributed this, to a degree, to their fear of what the effects of Brexit will be upon them; I think that still holds good, but there does appear to be some genuine nastiness creeping in too; very sad. As for our home-grown nay-sayers, they do seem to be blind to anything - everything! - that the EU does which, if was done to their beloved EU they would be horrified by.

I just cannot fathom all this unpleasantness, I am unwilling to believe that these are all simply 'nasty' people; so it seems reasonable to me that it is a reaction of fear. A pity, a real pity but, nonetheless, the UK will leave the EU and we will prosper outside of it. At what point will the bitterness cease?
 

czechmate

Member
Mixed Farmer
Despite denials there really does seem to be a fair amount of vitriol and would-be gloating from our 'friends' abroad. In a much earlier thread I recall that I attributed this, to a degree, to their fear of what the effects of Brexit will be upon them; I think that still holds good, but there does appear to be some genuine nastiness creeping in too; very sad. As for our home-grown nay-sayers, they do seem to be blind to anything - everything! - that the EU does which, if was done to their beloved EU they would be horrified by.

I just cannot fathom all this unpleasantness, I am unwilling to believe that these are all simply 'nasty' people; so it seems reasonable to me that it is a reaction of fear. A pity, a real pity but, nonetheless, the UK will leave the EU and we will prosper outside of it. At what point will the bitterness cease?


You never followed football at all?
I have compared this whole Brexit thing before with Celtic/Rangers.
Do you really think a Celtic fan will ever see good in Rangers?
It's just the same, you for eg will not see any good in the EU, I for eg will not see that on balance the EU is a bad thing.
We could write in here for the next 20 years (although I personally do have a real life to lead) and we will never see it different. Just like Celtic/Rangers.

I missed your last sentence, I don't believe it ever will; not in our lifetimes :-(...

Just like Celtic/Rangers!!!
 

Jackov Altraids

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
This line of argument is commonly seen, but it may be based on an equally-common misunderstanding.

The outcome of Art 50 is to settle Brexit, not a post-Brexit trading deal. So there may not be a 'deal' in the terms envisaged by the UK Government, merely a set of terms for payment, etc.

The reality is that a second referendum would be a verdict on the outcome of the first referendum, rather than a decision on trade arrangements that may take many years to formulate.

It is possible that Labour would campaign on revoking art 50 via such a referendum, which seems to me more honest and practical.

The outcome that I believe the large majority of the UK and probably throughout the EU would have liked, would be for a vision for the future of the EU to maintain an ethos of a trading union with growing co-ordination under consensus.
The federalist ideals which are being followed are not popular and so are not discussed. A significant factor that I believe you have missed is that all the time we negotiate and/ or postpone Brexit, the EU will be moving further away from the institution that the middle-ground majority want it to be.
If Juncker is given a free hand for the next 4 years by a Macron/Merkel alliance, the result may not be particularly appealing.
I'm not sure how honest it is to offer to revoke article 50 without getting a written agreement from the other 27 countries first as to what that would entail. This would be about as impossible as giving details of what leaving meant before the last referendum.
As a remaining member, I wouldn't accept continued membership for the UK without compensation for the huge costs and a ban on any future referendum on membership as a minimum.
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
You never followed football at all?
I have compared this whole Brexit thing before with Celtic/Rangers.
Do you really think a Celtic fan will ever see good in Rangers?
It's just the same, you for eg will not see any good in the EU, I for eg will not see that on balance the EU is a bad thing.
We could write in here for the next 20 years (although I personally do have a real life to lead) and we will never see it different. Just like Celtic/Rangers.

I missed your last sentence, I don't believe it ever will; not in our lifetimes :-(...

Just like Celtic/Rangers!!!
No interest in football generally, I may watch a World Cup match if home nations are playing, that's all.

I hold no hatred or bitterness toward my political opponents, none at all, they are my opponents, not my enemies. But I am exasperated by the ongoing unpleasantness, I just don't understand it; there was a vote, it went one way and that's it. If it had gone the other way I'd have been pretty sad, but I wouldn't be 'nasty' to or about those on the opposite side.

What outsiders, foreigners, want to be nasty for - setting aside the 'fear' reaction mentioned earlier - is beyond me; but some of the Irish posters on here are just that. Fortunately, I know that the vast majority of their countrymen are decent people who respect democracy and who, despite probably wishing our referendum had gone the other way, don't have an axe to grind and wish us well. I can't recall any unpleasantness on here from people elsewhere.

The other aspect I find odd, is that there was no way at all, other than by the UK voting to leave the EU, that I and others who wanted to leave could have had our 'sovereign' country back. But, that anyone who wants to live in the EU can still go and do so, but don't. If you think it is so great and you're there, good for you, if you think that and aren't there, why not go?

The obvious response to that is 'My life / business is here, why should I go?' Fair enough, but so are mine and those of all other who voted to leave, and there were more of us and, in a democracy, that is what matters. If you don't want democracy go and live in the EU, but please don't pretend to be democrats and persist with the carping and the trying to 'overturn' the referendum's result. It won't change things, it will just keep your bitterness at a simmer, it will alienate you from all those who either voted to leave or accept the vote and, lastly, it will just hold back our country. If you think that staying in the EU was best for our country, fine, but the vote went the other way; so surely the best thing for the country would now be for us all to pull together.

If anyone actually does want to disrupt things and / or prevent the expressed democratic will from being realised, you really can't claim to be either democrats or to have the UK's national interest at heart.
 

czechmate

Member
Mixed Farmer
No interest in football generally, I may watch a World Cup match if home nations are playing, that's all.

I hold no hatred or bitterness toward my political opponents, none at all, they are my opponents, not my enemies. But I am exasperated by the ongoing unpleasantness, I just don't understand it; there was a vote, it went one way and that's it. If it had gone the other way I'd have been pretty sad, but I wouldn't be 'nasty' to or about those on the opposite side.

What outsiders, foreigners, want to be nasty for - setting aside the 'fear' reaction mentioned earlier - is beyond me; but some of the Irish posters on here are just that. Fortunately, I know that the vast majority of their countrymen are decent people who respect democracy and who, despite probably wishing our referendum had gone the other way, don't have an axe to grind and wish us well. I can't recall any unpleasantness on here from people elsewhere.

The other aspect I find odd, is that there was no way at all, other than by the UK voting to leave the EU, that I and others who wanted to leave could have had our 'sovereign' country back. But, that anyone who wants to live in the EU can still go and do so, but don't. If you think it is so great and you're there, good for you, if you think that and aren't there, why not go?

The obvious response to that is 'My life / business is here, why should I go?' Fair enough, but so are mine and those of all other who voted to leave, and there were more of us and, in a democracy, that is what matters. If you don't want democracy go and live in the EU, but please don't pretend to be democrats and persist with the carping and the trying to 'overturn' the referendum's result. It won't change things, it will just keep your bitterness at a simmer, it will alienate you from all those who either voted to leave or accept the vote and, lastly, it will just hold back our country. If you think that staying in the EU was best for our country, fine, but the vote went the other way; so surely the best thing for the country would now be for us all to pull together.

If anyone actually does want to disrupt things and / or prevent the expressed democratic will from being realised, you really can't claim to be either democrats or to have the UK's national interest at heart.


Your last word is "heart"

A Celtic fans head will say he should support rangers in a final against Madrid. His heart will say support Madrid. He supports Madrid.
 

nivilla1982

Member
Livestock Farmer
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2017/09/23/the-government-needs-to-press-on-with-the-no-deal-option/

The government needs to press on with the No Deal option
By JOHNREDWOOD | Published: SEPTEMBER 23, 2017
The result of offering too many compromises with the EU is it will make the Deal option less attractive than the No Deal Option. Paying large sums for a Free Trade deal makes no sense, when tariffs would be a cheaper way where we can give the tariff money back to the UK consumers who paid it. Accepting EU control of our laws, trade policy, migration policy and other matters after March 2019 means we don’t take back control.

The PM’s speech says considerably less than the versions of commentary that have been built on the back of it. She argues that we want as short a transition as possible, and says we need to be able to run our own affairs from the moment we leave the EU. That is not the same as spending two more years in the EU and calling it transition. She said “I dont believe either the EU or the British people want the UK to stay longer in the existing structure than is necessary”, so lets get on with sorting everything out now. It need not be that difficult.

On money she says they might agree to stay in certain programmes where we would agree cash for benefits. I have no problem with that, though there are no programmes which are a must as far as I am concerned, We can replicate the worthwhile ones for ourselves. She also reaffirmed we will “honour commitments we have made during the period of our membership” which some interpret to mean making full contributions up to the end of the present 7 year budget cycle. There is no legal requirement to do that.

It is not possible to have a meaningful conversation about Transition or Interim arrangements without having a Deal agreed, or at least knowing the outlines of what the EU will offer and accept. I wish the PM well in her effort to get meaningful talks going. I am not persuaded that we owe them any money or that we want to stay in for moment longer than our legal requirement up to March 2019.

What the civil service have to grasp is there is no cliff edge. It is quite possible for the UK to have functioning borders and trade arrangements on March 2019 even with no deal. 160 other countries trade daily with the EU and most have no special Trade Agreement. The priority must be to get everything in order for 2019 exit. That will also strengthen our bargaining position for a better deal, showing we are ready and willing to just leave. The EU’s response to the speech shows that they will just go on pushing for more and more money to make sure it is bad deal.
 

DrDunc

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Dunsyre
The latest spiritual guru of the Brexiteers, isn't impressed with the latest instalment of Demise of Brexit. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-conservative-tory-mps-eu-italy-a7962701.html
Delaying Brexit as Theresa May wants will take the fatally weakening effects of Brexit beyond the timing of the next general election.

Perhaps she is beginning to understand that a different approach is required to the misplaced arrogance she exhibited calling a snap election, and the totally unnecessary arrogant gamble Cameron exhibited calling the Brexit referendum in the vain belief that it would unit his party.

Currently she is a politically dead woman walking, with no plan how to unite the conservatives, no outright majority in parliament, and no plan whatsoever on how to stave off economic disaster once we leave our biggest trade market.
 

jendan

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Northumberland
Delaying Brexit as Theresa May wants will take the fatally weakening effects of Brexit beyond the timing of the next general election.

Perhaps she is beginning to understand that a different approach is required to the misplaced arrogance she exhibited calling a snap election, and the totally unnecessary arrogant gamble Cameron exhibited calling the Brexit referendum in the vain belief that it would unit his party.

Currently she is a politically dead woman walking, with no plan how to unite the conservatives, no outright majority in parliament, and no plan whatsoever on how to stave off economic disaster once we leave our biggest trade market.
The Europe question has done for many Conservative party leaders and potential ones,and will continue to do so.
 

Ashtree

Member
The Europe question has done for many Conservative party leaders and potential ones,and will continue to do so.
Won't be many more leaders of any consequence. Old party full of old men and a few old women. Generally clueless. Disconnected completely from reality of ordinary folks lives. Toffs to the left and toffs to the right. Using the DUP, another old party full of old men equally disconnected from reality as a crutch to hold them up until next election. Then Corbyn will swat them aside.
 

jendan

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Northumberland
Won't be many more leaders of any consequence. Old party full of old men and a few old women. Generally clueless. Disconnected completely from reality of ordinary folks lives. Toffs to the left and toffs to the right. Using the DUP, another old party full of old men equally disconnected from reality as a crutch to hold them up until next election. Then Corbyn will swat them aside.
Ha-ha.Not sure about that.RobFTZ and Danllan are going to stand at the next election to show them all how to do it!
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
you f**king moaners
first you f**king moan cos we be leaving
then you f**king moan that we are not leaving fast enough
what the f**k you will be re-moaning about next or will you just re-moan about the same old thing
 

DrDunc

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Dunsyre
you fudgeing moaners
first you fudgeing moan cos we be leaving
then you fudgeing moan that we are not leaving fast enough
what the fudge you will be re-moaning about next or will you just re-moan about the same old thing
"Profanity is the effort of a feeble brain to express itself forcibly."
Spencer W Kimball

"Profanity is the last refuge of the truly ignorant".
Unknown
 

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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