The Disappearance of the All Round Farmer

glasshouse

Member
Location
lothians
My farming partner brother manages the sheep enterprise. I turn my hand to lambing as and when required. I am not an expert but aim to be an all rounder, not an amateur.

60 years ago the farmer employed people to do the specialist jobs but even then he knew enough about those jobs to know when they were being done right and how they fitted in to overall system. Now, the shepherd and the sheep have gone from many farms here and organic matter declines and soil quality becomes poorer and unworkable. No amount of large shiny kit or enthusiasm for techno toys will remedy that.
spot on
 

glasshouse

Member
Location
lothians
Thing is I don't disagree with you that arable farms need to get more livestock into their rotations if they can, where I disagree is that I don't think arable farmers should try and keep livestock themselves. I think the future will be symbiotic business relationships whereby the livestock owner and keeper works in conjunction with the arable farmer, and each continues his or her specialism, but on the same farm.
If that was such a great idea, it would be happening now.
Who pays for the fences?
who holds the jackets when the sheep get on the osr or brussel sprouts?
Sheep farmers cant run efficiently on land they could lose tomorrow cos they drove past the shoot party too fast without doffing cap.
 

glasshouse

Member
Location
lothians
The biggest problem is the return of the monied investor in farmland.
Where i am, a hundred years ago, rich industrialists owned all the farms and they invested little as shooting was their interest.
The tenant farmers had to get by as best they could.
After ww2, most farmers bought their land from the landlords, invested in new sheds, drains etc, intensified and employed lots of people, while remaining "mixed".
In the last 15yrs, most of these farms have been bought by rich non farmers, who employ contractors.
Livestock does not feature in the spreadsheet put forward by savills etc, the land is cropped, cottages on air b and b, no one employed.
The farms are crying out for livestock, but nobody is listening.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
The biggest problem is the return of the monied investor in farmland.

Livestock does not feature in the spreadsheet
You can sink an awful lot of day into livestock and never seem to get very far ahead. I guess that is the part that turns many folk off the idea, in the modern age where the son punches a time-clock :eek:
Whereas in reality bigger tractors do cover more ground in a day (deeper, too, but that's another thread) so I suppose the push for 'efficiency' is visible?

I dunno, I have some funny ideas, like my solar powered nitrogen being just as cost effective as the stuff that runs on dry-cells :censored:

But people ask me ' why do you even have sheep ' and my answer always is, "because I need them in my system. Doesn't mean I like catching them or dagging them, but there are breeds..." (and I like their personalities :confused:)

On specialisation, it's something I have always avoided; most of my old classmates who sneered at my desire to go labouring and then farming, have been through uni to no job at the other end of it :rolleyes:
So $80,000+ in debt to get a min. wage job in a shop?
No, ta :)
I see them on FB announcing they're finally buying their first home (y) so they've lost a lot of time, I bought my first house before 20.

'Just farming' from now on in... :unsure:
But, I still have money elsewhere, and outside jobs etc to drag in a bit extra, be silly not to if it's there.
It's a sign of the times when a chap can't find anyone who wants to check his lambs and have the occasional day weighing, scanning, load some on a truck etc. :rolleyes:

Amazing - @glasshouse - NZ without folk coming through who like sheeps!
 

glasshouse

Member
Location
lothians
You can sink an awful lot of day into livestock and never seem to get very far ahead. I guess that is the part that turns many folk off the idea, in the modern age where the son punches a time-clock :eek:
Whereas in reality bigger tractors do cover more ground in a day (deeper, too, but that's another thread) so I suppose the push for 'efficiency' is visible?

I dunno, I have some funny ideas, like my solar powered nitrogen being just as cost effective as the stuff that runs on dry-cells :censored:

But people ask me ' why do you even have sheep ' and my answer always is, "because I need them in my system. Doesn't mean I like catching them or dagging them, but there are breeds..." (and I like their personalities :confused:)

On specialisation, it's something I have always avoided; most of my old classmates who sneered at my desire to go labouring and then farming, have been through uni to no job at the other end of it :rolleyes:
So $80,000+ in debt to get a min. wage job in a shop?
No, ta :)
I see them on FB announcing they're finally buying their first home (y) so they've lost a lot of time, I bought my first house before 20.

'Just farming' from now on in... :unsure:
But, I still have money elsewhere, and outside jobs etc to drag in a bit extra, be silly not to if it's there.
It's a sign of the times when a chap can't find anyone who wants to check his lambs and have the occasional day weighing, scanning, load some on a truck etc. :rolleyes:

Amazing - @glasshouse - NZ without folk coming through who like sheeps!
livestock are needed to keep the soil alive. if they make money, its a bonus.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
livestock are needed to keep the soil alive. if they make money, its a bonus.
And they don't begin to sprout if it rains on the wrong day :ROFLMAO:
But yes, nail on the head there (y) amazing how much extra work you can generate by not using them as 'tools' to their best ability.
It doesn't need to be steel to be a necessary tool, finance is a business tool, animals are just as much a part of a holistic farm operation as a seed drill, if not more so.

@Farmer Roy :headphone: :angelic:
 

digger64

Member
It's true to say that as things havebecause e complex then specialisation is more of a necessity. I can see the problem of trying to run a diverse small mixed farm and keep on top of every aspect. I struggle with that everyday! I don't think there is a right answer to the thread. I just put it up to provoke a bit of discussion.

My only slight fear is that people might close their minds to other things that might benefit their farms or soils because they don't "like" stock or whatever. To my mind, we have to do what's best for the farm, even if it doesn't suit our personal preferences or skill set.

I remember hearing of the time my grandfather who was a Lanarkshire dairy farmer moved down to England to some grade three land in Lincs. He was a proficient dairy farmer in his day and wanted to establish another herd in England. Uncle wouldn't hear of it as he liked tractors and arable, so they persisted with mostly arable on some fairly unsuitable land for many years doing a good job but never being fully rewarded for their efforts because the land just wasn't good wheat land.

It's taken us a generation to learn how to play to the strengths of the farm and make the most of its potential rather than try to force it to do the impossible. I have had to roll back the arable area and curb my enthusiasm for machinery in favour of more livestock. We have had to do what the farm wants rather than what we want and look at the farm without trying to push our own preferred sector of agriculture.

(I know this doesn't apply to specialist units like pigs and poultry that aren't so dependent on soil type amongst other things.)
It would appear to me that the farmers who go all arable get alot more done on time and grow better crops in the short term simply because basically they can focus on the job in hand at the time with out interruption and get a full day in on the tractor as they don't have routine work to do first or last, also the maintenance gets done on quieter days it's just simpler to manage themselves but as a tenant they would have no capital accumulating at all I'm not sure if that's good policy long term
 

hendrebc

Member
Livestock Farmer
Its noticable even to a simple livestock farmer like me who doesnt measure yeilds any more than counting bales how much less silage ill get off a field if i dont have enough FYM to put on it before closing up the field in spring even if there are sheep/cattle on it for the rest of the year and it gets enough NPK fert in a bag. Id hate to think about taking some crop off a field every year without putting something back. I bet there would be a noticable difference if you could measure the extra crop like you could through a combine.
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
Speaking to a old chap in grassland society, he told me 25 years ago that a new idea came about called rotational grazing.

Any of the more experienced members on tff care to tell us why it didn't work then, but now it's going to save us a fortune?

True saying there's nothing new in morning.

It did work and it always has, but it required more work than just opening a gate and letting the stock roam.;)
There was an old saying, going back much further than 25 years, that you should never let stock hear the church bells twice in the same field. That is essentially rotational grazing, just perhaps not as strictly regulated as some do today in pursuit of further production gains.
I'm 49 and have been involved in livestock all my life. We have always mobbed sheep up into groups of around 250 ewes and their lambs (as many as you can comfortably work in a day, between milkings originally) and moved them frequently. I still do today. For almost 30 years, I have wintered sheep behind electric on roots, with fresh blocks every 4 days or so. Another thing that is suddenly in fashion.
My father was up to 330 milkers in the seventies, and everything was always strip grazed behind electric with fresh blocks daily. As soon as I was old enough, that was my job. Didn't have pasture meters and all that gubbins, just experience and a pair of eyes that could evaluate how big a block they would need for a day. We had a lot of followers outwintered on strip grazed Kale back in those days (levelling R&F on occasion), which is another 'new' idea, but were damned glad when we got the next door farm added to the tenancy, giving us some buildings to have them in!
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
livestock are needed to keep the soil alive. if they make money, its a bonus.

Does that depend on your preference and your point of view?:scratchhead:
Arable is here to keep the livestock, which generate more profit than the arable. If I ever get older, or the lamb price falls completely out of bed, I might choose to adjust the balance in favour of arable, but ticking along nicely now.

I guess I must qualify as an 'all rounder', or 'old fashioned dinosaur' if you like. I have sheep and arable, but have been around cattle all my life so wouldn't rule them out if I could find a way to make them pay/fit in. As a one man band, with assistance from Mrs NeilO when really needed, I do most of the work in house, but I'm not afraid to outsource when I need to, or when it makes financial sense. I have contractors to AI sheep, shear, combine, spread lime/Fibrophos, lift beet, mow and bale. I do all other stock work myself, all fencing, hedgelaying, spraying, drilling, cultivations, hedgecutting, fert spreading, accounts, assorted BS paperwork for govt, plumbing and electricary. I employ an agronomist for his specialist knowledge, but I am like a sponge for the info provided. I also employ a dodgy local fella with a digger occasionally, when there's some drainage work needs sorting. If I had lots of mowing, baling (my 'grazing' system does need much in the way of silage) or drainage work to do, I wouldn't hesitate to take that back in house too. Looking at shiny kit does nothing for me, and sitting on a tractor all day bores me silly, so the variety is great.

All fine & dandy as long as the prime mover stays fit & healthy.......:unsure:
 

glasshouse

Member
Location
lothians
There is an old saying that the best fertiliser is a farmers boot.
many farms will never see such a thing.

Vast areas of land are being "pharmed" , not farmed, and a day of reckoning is coming, and already here for blackgrass farms.
 

two-cylinder

Member
Location
Cambridge
The image of all farms being mixed is a cosy nice idea.
But on low land farms with minimal rainfall is a non-starter, besides here in the East there is no longer the infrastructure to get the animals into the food chain.
 

hendrebc

Member
Livestock Farmer
The image of all farms being mixed is a cosy nice idea.
But on low land farms with minimal rainfall is a non-starter, besides here in the East there is no longer the infrastructure to get the animals into the food chain.
You dont have any roads in the east?! A few hours on a lorry is nothing for stock nowadays
 

Frodo2

Member
Speaking to a old chap in grassland society, he told me 25 years ago that a new idea came about called rotational grazing.

Any of the more experienced members on tff care to tell us why it didn't work then, but now it's going to save us a fortune?

True saying there's nothing new in morning.
Extensification payments at one time would have actively discouraged it.
 

glasshouse

Member
Location
lothians
The image of all farms being mixed is a cosy nice idea.
But on low land farms with minimal rainfall is a non-starter, besides here in the East there is no longer the infrastructure to get the animals into the food chain.
Loads of farmers complain that the next generation is not interested in farming.
Livestock is the best way to interest them when they are young.
Allarable farms are soulless places and no place for kids
 

kfpben

Member
Location
Mid Hampshire
Loads of farmers complain that the next generation is not interested in farming.
Livestock is the best way to interest them when they are young.
Allarable farms are soulless places and no place for kids
Interesting you say that. I would say 70% of farms round here are either all arable or arable with a few ewes/cattle to chew down the odd grass paddock.

Yet most members of my local YFC in the past 15 years have been from stock farming families or herdsmen/stockmen etc. Arable farming kids rarely seem to be that into farming in my experience.
 
Loads of farmers complain that the next generation is not interested in farming.
Livestock is the best way to interest them when they are young.
Allarable farms are soulless places and no place for kids
When I was a kid, went with Dad to load straw near Dundee. The farmer had all but retired, with most of the ground let out for arable but kept 10 suckler cows which he was keen to show us lying contentedly in a deeply bedded court. There was evidence of a lot of pipe smoking at the barrier overlooking said court. "A steading is a cold place without stock", he said.
 
There is an old saying that the best fertiliser is a farmers boot.
many farms will never see such a thing.

Vast areas of land are being "pharmed" , not farmed, and a day of reckoning is coming, and already here for blackgrass farms.
'Hydroponics' a friend of mine called it the other day. The crops are virtually growing in a sterile medium, everything has to be added.
 
Thing is I don't disagree with you that arable farms need to get more livestock into their rotations if they can, where I disagree is that I don't think arable farmers should try and keep livestock themselves. I think the future will be symbiotic business relationships whereby the livestock owner and keeper works in conjunction with the arable farmer, and each continues his or her specialism, but on the same farm.
I would like to think you are right but a lot of arable farmers seem to have a mental block about stock on their farm, even if someone else does the work. Water bowsers and electric fence would fix a lot.
 

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

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