Are Ploughing Matches Under Threat?

Howard150 · Apr 9, 2018

Tonym said:
I would say there are probably more ts59 and ts59/86lookalikes in the classics than there are genuine ts86's but it is dominated by Ransomes. Most of the others are vintage ploughs that cannot plough vintage because their tractor is not eligible due to its age.

All depends where in the world you are Tony. At one time here at Scarcroft we had no less than 13 TS86’s in the classic class with two, possibly 3 TS59’s adapted for match ploughing. 20 in the class was not unusual, in similar proportions although at that time almost exclusively running TCN’s.
It’s not that many years ago when the line up at Flint was predominantly 86’s. As you say though - Ransomes predominance - absolute and total

arcobob · Apr 9, 2018

Throughout match ploughing there are clear differences between the best kit and the basic kit and it comes down to money in the end. Harry will object but some in World style operate with £20K plus gear and some of those at the bottom spent less than £1K. There are all sorts of others in between and for fair competition to be maintained throughout there have to be restrictions and different classes. With regard to match entries and value for money Harry has no idea about the cost of insurance both for the event and the caterers. Organisers have to declare the maximum numbers attending the event to ensure that public liability is sufficient. Harry quotes ancient times when nobody had even heard of public liability. Now every helper, organiser and committee member, steward judge, parking attendant and the landowner can be held liable for accidents and disclaimers may not save them. Move into the real world Harry because there is no such thing as an accident, it is always the fault of somebody else. The days of free engraving, lunches and other hand outs are now only supported by wealthy sponsors and these are becoming harder to find. If you want more you will have to pay for it.

Ley253 · Apr 9, 2018

arcobob said:
Throughout match ploughing there are clear differences between the best kit and the basic kit and it comes down to money in the end. Harry will object but some in World style operate with £20K plus gear and some of those at the bottom spent less than £1K. There are all sorts of others in between and for fair competition to be maintained throughout there have to be restrictions and different classes. With regard to match entries and value for money Harry has no idea about the cost of insurance both for the event and the caterers. Organisers have to declare the maximum numbers attending the event to ensure that public liability is sufficient. Harry quotes ancient times when nobody had even heard of public liability. Now every helper, organiser and committee member, steward judge, parking attendant and the landowner can be held liable for accidents and disclaimers may not save them. Move into the real world Harry because there is no such thing as an accident, it is always the fault of somebody else. The days of free engraving, lunches and other hand outs are now only supported by wealthy sponsors and these are becoming harder to find. If you want more you will have to pay for it.

Totaly agree Bob.I would support an extra pound on the entry fee to cover engraving costs. it would be a charge of direct benefit to competitors. It is indefensible to give a man a prize of X value, and then charge him B for winning it! It doesnt take long for engraving costs to add up.When I won several trophies at Guildford years ago, the engraving costs were enough to have used up the money put aside for travel to the next match, however, the society covered everything! The hardest thing was giving the winners speech!
I am only to aware of the gulf between the "also rans" and the top strata in world style, it is a two tier class, as you say dominated by finances, but I think it always has been.

Ley253 · Apr 9, 2018

Howard150 said:
More than that Roy. Take the TS86’s out of the English Classic Class and there is very little left. I have ploughed in classes of 16 or 17 when there has been nothing else, the only variation being TCN or RWM.
Nothing much other than KV in our part of the world in World Style. Very rare that Fiskars is ever seen. At one time JJ Metcalf used them on an 86, Geoff Fretwell had them on a KV frame but changed to all KV when he bought Nick Davenport’s plough. Hats off to Tom Charlton. Still ploughing at 83 with Bonnings on an 86.
Problem? What problem!

Groundswell of discontent? more like a surfeit of malcontent and all from one source. You not having organised matches will not understand the breaking even bit. You have manifold and varying opinions Harry - from what you tell us on here all correct and well supported. About time we saw you out with a clipboard Aitch. Entry fee down by 100%. Cost to get there down by 70%, preparation time down by 100%, cost of engraving down 100% cost of Lunch down 100% and people tell us there’s no such thing as a free lunch!. Sounds like a sure fire winner for you Aitch - especially considering the dearth of judges and your occasional need on here to put the wronguns to rights. Get a clipboard Aitch. You might then find what a voice in the wilderness might well be like if you get the result wrong.

How many have you asked if the feel this charge is correct then Dave? I have asked many, and as yet have found no one in agreement with it.

Cordiale · Apr 9, 2018

I personally see no reason why a basic fiskars or kverneland match plough should not be allowed to compete against the TS 86 with TCN's or RWM's, provided it meets the age criteria and is not stuffed full of hydraulic gadgets.

Ley253 · Apr 9, 2018

Cordiale said:
I personally see no reason why a basic fiskars or kverneland match plough should not be allowed to compete against the TS 86 with TCN's or RWM's, provided it meets the age criteria and is not stuffed full of hydraulic gadgets.

Why the down on Hyds? They are only a method of achieving the same ends as a screw thread, for example, and in the case of fossils like myself, the lower effort required helps us to continue ploughing.

Cordiale · Apr 9, 2018

Ley253 said:
Why the down on Hyds? They are only a method of achieving the same ends as a screw thread, for example, and in the case of fossils like myself, the lower effort required helps us to continue ploughing.

No down on hydraulics, but I believe they are not allowed in classic class.

Sprayer · Apr 10, 2018

Ley253 said:
Why the down on Hyds? They are only a method of achieving the same ends as a screw thread, for example, and in the case of fossils like myself, the lower effort required helps us to continue ploughing.

Cordiale said:
No down on hydraulics, but I believe they are not allowed in classic class.

Why are you so pedantic all of the time with everyone Harry, it is obvious from Cordial's original post on allowing Fiskars & Kverneland that he is talking about the Classic class because of his reference to the type of plough bodies and age criteria. To me this constant hair splitting and nit picking is driving constructive new contributors away. The constant going round in circles on irrelevant arguments gets very boring. Do you plough fields round and round, it was popular in some parts in the sixties. Please lets not spoil what was a good forum.

Roy Stokes · Apr 10, 2018

So there we have it, the original post is are ploughing matches under threat, well at the moment I would say no, not immediately any way, but take away the one make classes, lump the vintage in with the modern and soon you would have nothing, these classes are born out from demand, World Style has evolved from what we used to called Semi digger due to the demand for competitors on the world stage, classic was born from demand to use the TS 86 competitively, and Fergy/DB classes are born out of their respective clubs wishes and the competitors wish to compete on a level playing field with equipment they have, all this has added up to some very big ploughing matches with plenty of money being donated to charities.
I am not much of a fan of having a can shaken at me as I walk into the shopping centre ( on the odd occasion I go to such places) for a donation but feel I do my bit by entering charity matches, supporting the raffle etc, and donating my entry fee when matches are cancelled, I think Mr Gove could be persuaded that the benefit to charities outweighs the damage the environment may or may not suffer as a result of a ploughing match but landowners/tenants who go down the direct drilling route will take more persuading and realistically unless they are supporters of ploughing matches then it gives them a get out clause

Howard150 · Apr 10, 2018

Sprayer said:
Why are you so pedantic all of the time with everyone Harry, it is obvious from Cordial's original post on allowing Fiskars & Kverneland that he is talking about the Classic class because of his reference to the type of plough bodies and age criteria. To me this constant hair splitting and nit picking is driving constructive new contributors away. The constant going round in circles on irrelevant arguments gets very boring. Do you plough fields round and round, it was popular in some parts in the sixties. Please lets not spoil what was a good forum.

As ever, Harry gives a very very convincing argument against both social media and democracy. My own personal view is that regardless of age, ploughmen are free to make their minds up whether or not to plough, whether or not to contribute on here.
Over the years I have witnessed a lot of vehement comment at ploughing matches, against the establishment, none of which the originators were man enough to post on here or stand up and be counted at meetings. The sad fact of the matter is, if they had been man enough to stand up at a meeting, nothing would have changed due to how the current administration is rigged. Whilst we all might get hacked off hearing the same pedantic hair splitting with arguments on here, dragged out well beyond their sell by date, it is insufficient reason for people not to plough, or not to contribute on here.
This thread has had its day though Time to move on.

Cordiale said:
I personally see no reason why a basic fiskars or kverneland match plough should not be allowed to compete against the TS 86 with TCN's or RWM's, provided it meets the age criteria and is not stuffed full of hydraulic gadgets.

Having been probably one of the few ploughmen to support the Classic Class from day one, I would be sad to see it changed from its current format. Despite being held at arms length by the vintage factions, it is far more closely allied to them by virtue of the work produced, than World Style.

By the same token it is probably morally wrong to exclude age related ploughs from the classic era. The most difficult aspect of this perplexing question is “where do you draw the line’. The second most difficult factor is finding judges of sufficient calibre fit to judge it if radically mixed.
We have discussed the problem at Scarcroft and our view is that it be best leave the existing Classic Class as it is and stage an invitation class for age related ploughs, including hydraulic attachments, after all they were once what is now World Style and would have been used with such accessories. We intend to call it Open Classic.

Mydexta · Apr 10, 2018

Howard150 said:
As ever, Harry gives a very very convincing argument against both social media and democracy. My own personal view is that regardless of age, ploughmen are free to make their minds up whether or not to plough, whether or not to contribute on here.
Over the years I have witnessed a lot of vehement comment at ploughing matches, against the establishment, none of which the originators were man enough to post on here or stand up and be counted at meetings. The sad fact of the matter is, if they had been man enough to stand up at a meeting, nothing would have changed due to how the current administration is rigged. Whilst we all might get hacked off hearing the same pedantic hair splitting with arguments on here, dragged out well beyond their sell by date, it is insufficient reason for people not to plough, or not to contribute on here.
This thread has had its day though Time to move on.

Having been probably one of the few ploughmen to support the Classic Class from day one, I would be sad to see it changed from its current format. Despite being held at arms length by the vintage factions, it is far more closely allied to them by virtue of the work produced, than World Style.

By the same token it is probably morally wrong to exclude age related ploughs from the classic era. The most difficult aspect of this perplexing question is “where do you draw the line’. The second most difficult factor is finding judges of sufficient calibre fit to judge it if radically mixed.
We have discussed the problem at Scarcroft and our view is that it be best leave the existing Classic Class as it is and stage an invitation class for age related ploughs, including hydraulic attachments, after all they were once what is now World Style and would have been used with such accessories. We intend to call it Open Classic.

Am I correct in saying that the rules and eligibility for the classic class differs between Scotland,England, and possibly the other home nations???.

If someone wins the Scottish championships with a set of bonnings, or ucns, are they allowed to enter the European championships with them????

Would it not be better if we all followed a set of rules as set by the top, rather than everyone having their own variants.

Ley253 · Apr 10, 2018

Sprayer said:
Why are you so pedantic all of the time with everyone Harry, it is obvious from Cordial's original post on allowing Fiskars & Kverneland that he is talking about the Classic class because of his reference to the type of plough bodies and age criteria. To me this constant hair splitting and nit picking is driving constructive new contributors away. The constant going round in circles on irrelevant arguments gets very boring. Do you plough fields round and round, it was popular in some parts in the sixties. Please lets not spoil what was a good forum.

MMMM, it is a fault that I have few "grey areas", and perhaps dont move with the times,but "fossils" such as myself do tend to try to remain in their comfort zone.My reaction to one make, and the fergy class stems from the reason they were brought into being, and, like it or not it was a pots for the boys situation and was seen by many of us at the time as dumbing down match ploughing.The work at that time was so bad, that I was standing beside two men at a Hereford match and heard one say " looking at that they wont now be on my place next year".
My comment re hydraulics were to draw attention to the fact that its the plough which does the work and hydraulics, electricity or body strength are all different ways of achieving movement of the same plough component, and have little effect on the work, other than perhaps enable standards to be maintained for longer by reducing the fatigue of the ploughman.
My dislike of the engraving charge stems from the fact that in my view, (and I am not alone in this, though others grin and bear it) that by requiring this, the award is devalued, and in a somewhat "backhanded" manner. The cost is secondary to this, though can also cause problems to the less well off amongst us.Everyone I have spoken to about it would much rather that entry fees rose slightly to cover this cost, it would not have to be much, as the organisers would have the opportunity to get a special " bulk" rate and all the engraving would match, and so improve the appearance of the trophy.
Re ploughing round and round, a few years ago I had nearly mastered this, but new glasses seem to have cured the problem!
I have no intention of damaging the forum. Indeed if it were not for my (seemingly unwelcome) input it would have run out of steam some time ago

Howard150 · Apr 10, 2018

Mydexta said:
Am I correct in saying that the rules and eligibility for the classic class differs between Scotland,England, and possibly the other home nations???.

If someone wins the Scottish championships with a set of bonnings, or ucns, are they allowed to enter the European championships with them????

Would it not be better if we all followed a set of rules as set by the top, rather than everyone having their own variants.

Possibly so.
However the Classic Class was set up here in England. We seem to have had no say whatsoever in how it has evolved, largely because Europe did not have the same kit as we did. Not an issue for you in Scotland as they have fallen into line, as have Southern if not Northern Ireland.
If you aspire to ploughing in Europe then use whatever and pick your class accordingly.
We are all though, hopefully in the persuit of improving standards. Let me assure you in no uncertain terms that the Classic Class which I won in the Europeans at Worksop, using an 86 with TCN’s, also being the highest point scorer over the two days in all the conventional classes, despite not being given the trophy for being the overall winner as this was exclusively vintage, was far far away from being an improvement. It was a disgrace with some of the plots no better than you would expect at a vintage working day and that’s not to run down some of the very good ploughmen present from Scotland, Wales and Ireland.

An Open Classic Class here in England would preserve what we have whist levelling the playing field for those who wish to plough in the Europeans.

wuddy · Apr 10, 2018

Mydexta said:
Am I correct in saying that the rules and eligibility for the classic class differs between Scotland,England, and possibly the other home nations???.

If someone wins the Scottish championships with a set of bonnings, or ucns, are they allowed to enter the European championships with them????

Would it not be better if we all followed a set of rules as set by the top, rather than everyone having their own variants.

Have lost count of the number of times the Scottish have tried to get a straight answer out of Mike Childerly regarding what is and isn’t allowed at the European

Cordiale · Apr 11, 2018

As you have probably deduced from my recent comments I use a fiskars match plough. This plough was bought in 1985, when I was young and very keen. At the time the ploughing matches catered for semi-digger and whole furrow classes.

As has been said elsewhere on here, I like others stopped ploughing in matches, when I got married and had other financial and work commitments.
I decided about two years ago that I was going to restart competing in ploughing matches, before I became too decrepit, and could no longer physically do it.
During my 20 year absence, the ploughing scene has changed completely. There was always vintage, but a lot of the ploughs that I used to compete against are now termed classic. Meanwhile my plough has been rebranded as world style instead of sem-digger. Leaving me unable to compete in many local matches against classic tractors, (I have an International 574, L reg) and the plough is 1975. I feel aggrieved because I have a plough that I enjoy using, but not many classes to use it in, and can't really justify buying another plough. I guess it wrankles me a bit.

As for people saying that the 86's etc, can't compete against older types of "World Style" ploughs, judging by a lot of photos on here, they do far more than holding their own, a lot of the work produced looks superb.

If we can't be incorporated into classic, I hope that a lot of clubs and societies take up Howard 150's/Scarcofts idea of an open classic class.

On the plus side during the time I have been off the scene, the sport has grown beyond all recognition, with far more people ploughing and to a much higher overall standard.

At the start of the thread I asked if ploughing matches were under threat?
Well from my recent experiences they are thriving more than ever they did, more numerous and better attended. So unless the politicians cock it up for us I think the future is extremely rosy.

Ray996 · Apr 11, 2018

Cordiale said:
As you have probably deduced from my recent comments I use a fiskars match plough. This plough was bought in 1985, when I was young and very keen. At the time the ploughing matches catered for semi-digger and whole furrow classes.

As has been said elsewhere on here, I like others stopped ploughing in matches, when I got married and had other financial and work commitments.
I decided about two years ago that I was going to restart competing in ploughing matches, before I became too decrepit, and could no longer physically do it.
During my 20 year absence, the ploughing scene has changed completely. There was always vintage, but a lot of the ploughs that I used to compete against are now termed classic. Meanwhile my plough has been rebranded as world style instead of sem-digger. Leaving me unable to compete in many local matches against classic tractors, (I have an International 574, L reg) and the plough is 1975. I feel aggrieved because I have a plough that I enjoy using, but not many classes to use it in, and can't really justify buying another plough. I guess it wrankles me a bit.

As for people saying that the 86's etc, can't compete against older types of "World Style" ploughs, judging by a lot of photos on here, they do far more than holding their own, a lot of the work produced looks superb.

If we can't be incorporated into classic, I hope that a lot of clubs and societies take up Howard 150's/Scarcofts idea of an open classic class.

On the plus side during the time I have been off the scene, the sport has grown beyond all recognition, with far more people ploughing and to a much higher overall standard.

At the start of the thread I asked if ploughing matches were under threat?
Well from my recent experiences they are thriving more than ever they did, more numerous and better attended. So unless the politicians cock it up for us I think the future is extremely rosy.

What class would a kv md frame on no 8s be allowed to enter? Plough built 1976 according to serial number sent to kv uk

Howard150 · Apr 11, 2018

Ray996 said:
What class would a kv md frame on no 8s be allowed to enter? Plough built 1976 according to serial number sent to kv uk

According to the letter of the law Ray, by the current European dictates, your plough would be World Style.
According to them, Classic classification is anything produced before 1976. As in all things, at local level who will bother? Not many I suspect. Only a problem if you start to win a lot, which you could well do as number 8’s produce some great work. Get out there and have a go.

Just a quick edit. It would be worth investigating when the frame and bodies were first manufactured. There is a significant difference in the phrases “produced before” and “in production before”
Produced before is fairly terminal and in broad terms means made before and no later than 31/12/75. In production before is a much broader statement and in some cases could mean that ploughs manufactured as late as 1979 wold still be eligible provided that that particular version was made earlier than 1/01/1976.

Cordiale · Apr 12, 2018

Ray996 said:
What class would a kv md frame on no 8s be allowed to enter? Plough built 1976 according to serial number sent to kv uk

I would say compete in the classic class, and if or when you get complaints have a rethink.
I have ploughed in classic class, last time out was beaten by a guy with a TS 59 on YL's, so it's not just down to the boards or age of plough, but the expertise of the user.
In the above case, I would have come up with the same result if I had been judging. The chap who won has only been ploughing for a few years, and not so long ago didn't have much of a clue, he now plough to a very respectable standard.

Vintage Auctioneer · Apr 12, 2018

Mydexta said:
We have that class up here, a classic reversible class.

Ploughs must be hand trip only, not sure about restrictions on tractors but it is a class that is growing in popularity

I have followed this thread with some interest. I plough with a three furrow Kverneland Hydrein pulled by a 1988 export spec, cab-less, MF 360. This keeps my weight to 3,500 behind the Disco. There is a strong three furrow conventional class in our area (Yorkshire Wolds). It is dominated by Kvernland, usually pulled by either a SQ Ford or XL cabbed IH. This class is not recognised by the SoP. I do think they are missing a trick here. At the matches I have attended this spring there have been 11 to 16 competitors in this class, on all occasions out numbering all of the recognised classes on the field. What does this say?

Howard150 · Apr 12, 2018

Vintage Auctioneer said:
I have followed this thread with some interest. I plough with a three furrow Kverneland Hydrein pulled by a 1988 export spec, cab-less, MF 360. This keeps my weight to 3,500 behind the Disco. There is a strong three furrow conventional class in our area (Yorkshire Wolds). It is dominated by Kvernland, usually pulled by either a SQ Ford or XL cabbed IH. This class is not recognised by the SoP. I do think they are missing a trick here. At the matches I have attended this spring there have been 11 to 16 competitors in this class, on all occasions out numbering all of the recognised classes on the field. What does this say?

And the number 8’s leading the pack. Don’t forget that we made you welcome at Scarcroft last year. Hopefully we will have a class that suits you better this October.

What you might need to explain on here is that in North Yorkshire, the three furrow conventional class has had a good following for years whereas it may well not exist in other parts of the country.

Another factor which must be taken into account is the fact that plots can be at a premium in some parts of the country. Sufficient land may not be available to run 3 or more furrow classes that need bigger plots.

Are Ploughing Matches Under Threat?

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