EPC regulations and Tenants

Location
Suffolk
Plastic foil coated windows are ok in the right setting ,but in the wrong place they are awful
OK yes in an old grade 2 house, but how often do the likes of you & I do this type of work? Me, it has been a once-in-a-lifetime-thing & NO I didn't use plastic!
Here in my Victorian renovation I'm using the best plastic units I can with great success & I think I'm in the high B or low A EPC rating. At least the heating bills are low, & in the new bit the guests have never ever complained of being cold!
SS
 

steveR

Member
Mixed Farmer
Already done last summer to see what has changed.(y)

Did you see any variation?

Spent a lot of time on the phone on Friday exploring various options... Going to get a "free" assessment through the local Council I hope. Once I have one, I can argue for an exemption!!

Original EPC from 2010 did not have any realistic or viable options in the summary. I am not anticipating any change there for 2 out of 3 properties.

The problem is essentially, "solid walls"! Cost/m2 is not for the faint hearted... ASHP and replumbing would cost circa £10k, PV is not appropriate, as no FiT unless property is already EPC D. Triple glazing may help a little, but not enough...
 
Location
Suffolk
I do wish folk would stop thinking triple glazing is a panacaea! In the UK buildings just aren't suitable & the cost to get it into a suitable frame is near on frightening thus impossible cost wise. A good quality double glazed unit will be just as good & way more cost effective.
'Dry lining' is effective but there are some backwards steps that need to be done like emptying the property.
SS
 

phillipe

Member
OK yes in an old grade 2 house, but how often do the likes of you & I do this type of work? Me, it has been a once-in-a-lifetime-thing & NO I didn't use plastic!
Here in my Victorian renovation I'm using the best plastic units I can with great success & I think I'm in the high B or low A EPC rating. At least the heating bills are low, & in the new bit the guests have never ever complained of being cold!
SS
An A, they are a rare beasty,
 
Location
Suffolk
An A, they are a rare beasty,
I can only go on what I have. A less than 5m3 underfloor heating set-up. Achieves 22 degrees when on & when off drops to 19 degrees. No heating upstairs. Solar hot water, which is like bringing the sun inside during March. The drop is the interesting part. 3 degrees. Even in this winter during 'The-Beast-From-The-East' it was 21 degrees!
Dry lining the most used room in the old Victorian farm house has raised the temperature considerably. I only need 2kw to keep it warm even during the BFTE spell.

Dry lining, @steveR I've done this to more properties than I can remember. Never a problem, just a solution. It's the way forward if you want to continue keeping the money coming in from rental. If not go & slam your fingers in a door. It's less painful!:D Modern insulation is out there & it's not really that hard to do & it will get your EPC up to a level where it should be, for the tenants sake. You do really have to do something in return to a property over the years. Do one at a time over a period, it is beneficial to the landlord in the long run & don't skimp either. You could re-wire at the same time (new consumer unit up to regs) as the properties sound like they have had little proper attention for quite a while.:rolleyes:
SS
 

How much

Member
Location
North East
You can go a long way toward meeting the standards quit easily although it does cost some money are the walls stone or brick ? if they are brick there is an argument for cavity insulation "if there is a cavity" , if its stone its likely the thickness will will more than offset the value of , a cavity wall with insulation. Assuming you have LPG heating with your lpg supply a new boiler will push you up a long way new boilers compared to ones even 10 to 15 years old are way more efficient stick 250mm of insulation in the loft and another big tick , Double glazed obviously but just a good insulated door will help. and you are there pretty much there . Oh and change you bulbs to LED

there are two different types of epc, new build and or old build , generally think old build ones are cheaper than the new build ones need i believe the accessor has to calculate the thermal values of the walls etc if you cannot prove what the wall is , cavity , stone , thickness etc you are probably better getting an assessor who can calculate those values , and its worth paying him the extra amount for the work. I had this on a office to flat conversion with big stone walls

i,m not sure just how true it is but one assessor told me to hide all the temporary heating , ie portable gas fire , portable electric rad , fans etc as they where forms of heating and used calculate epc pulling it down.
 

phillipe

Member
If you get a solar installer to give you a "quote" and ask his epc man to do a new survey,you will be surprised at the result when they think there is money about ;)
 

steveR

Member
Mixed Farmer
You can go a long way toward meeting the standards quit easily although it does cost some money are the walls stone or brick ? if they are brick there is an argument for cavity insulation "if there is a cavity" , if its stone its likely the thickness will will more than offset the value of , a cavity wall with insulation. Assuming you have LPG heating with your lpg supply a new boiler will push you up a long way new boilers compared to ones even 10 to 15 years old are way more efficient stick 250mm of insulation in the loft and another big tick , Double glazed obviously but just a good insulated door will help. and you are there pretty much there . Oh and change you bulbs to LED

there are two different types of epc, new build and or old build , generally think old build ones are cheaper than the new build ones need i believe the accessor has to calculate the thermal values of the walls etc if you cannot prove what the wall is , cavity , stone , thickness etc you are probably better getting an assessor who can calculate those values , and its worth paying him the extra amount for the work. I had this on a office to flat conversion with big stone walls

i,m not sure just how true it is but one assessor told me to hide all the temporary heating , ie portable gas fire , portable electric rad , fans etc as they where forms of heating and used calculate epc pulling it down.

We have already done all the "easy options" like you describe to be honest... The issue is simply old, solid brick walls. :banghead:

From chatting with the assessor we have used in the past and will be doing another suite of checks, temporary heating is pretty irrelevant.
 
Location
Suffolk
We have already done all the "easy options" like you describe to be honest... The issue is simply old, solid brick walls. :banghead:

From chatting with the assessor we have used in the past and will be doing another suite of checks, temporary heating is pretty irrelevant.
I can't see the problem? What's holding you back from internal dry lining? It's your income after all......You'e gotta keep your properties in reasonable order & if you let them slip woe betide you.
SS
 

steveR

Member
Mixed Farmer
Dry lining, @steveR I've done this to more properties than I can remember. Never a problem, just a solution. It's the way forward if you want to continue keeping the money coming in from rental. If not go & slam your fingers in a door. It's less painful!:D Modern insulation is out there & it's not really that hard to do & it will get your EPC up to a level where it should be, for the tenants sake. You do really have to do something in return to a property over the years. Do one at a time over a period, it is beneficial to the landlord in the long run & don't skimp either. You could re-wire at the same time (new consumer unit up to regs) as the properties sound like they have had little proper attention for quite a while.:rolleyes:
SS

2 out of 3 of the properties have have been renovated in the past 20 years, wiring, plumbing etc. Looking back, it was a mistake not to update insulation at the time, however I was not managing that process... The remaining cottage has an elderly tenant in it who is VERY resistant to any works...:whistle:

External insulation is often a major project with suspect outcomes even with a large expenditure. Internal requires an empty property and huge amounts of work.

However your comment "Modern insulation is out there & it's not really that hard to do & it will get your EPC up to a level where it should be, for the tenants sake. You do really have to do something in return to a property over the years" begs the question on how financially viable it actually is...

From speaking with letting Agents and also an EPC assessor, it often is not. With the old Green Deal grants, it was feasible to make some improvements, however my experience was that it was usually easier and more cost effective to carry out upgrades such as boilers, ourselves. There are properties that are being withdrawn from the letting market with AST's not being renewed.:mad: One Agent has told me that they are aware of properties being pit on the open market rather than try and update them!!

From numerous calls and investigations, the Green Deal finance options are a bit of a joke. VERY expensive money!! If you have existing tenants and try to use a GDF loan, tenants are refusing cooperation, which is their perogative, as the increase on fuel bills is a cause for worry. More worryingly, I am advised increased rental incomes will not reflect large energy saving expenditure...
 
Location
Suffolk
Modern insulation costs are what they are. Just a m2 thing, as simple as that.

Sadly your 'adviser' let you down big-time 20 years ago. You've missed an ideal opportunity & I'm afraid your predecessor will have to take the blame. You'll have to bite the bullet & crack on & 'do' what you didn't do then. It's as simple as that. 1987 is more than 30 years ago & we were one of the runners up in the RIBA House-of-the-year award. Design, innovation & insulation were in there. Me I was in on the insulation....You may or not have read my post on my 'renovations' & insulation comments. They stand true & are cost effective over time.
I'm stil running away & always will in the grant system in that if you want to sup with the devil you have to have a very long spoon. In that I just DON"T go down the grant route. Another property I built & sold is still lived in by the original purchaser who is still reallly happy with low, low fuel bills as the insulation was over & above that required at the time. C 1990.
The last agent I had a disagreement with managed to achieve a low C EPC when I'd have achieved a low B which was the properties potential. After five years the maths just simply points to my idea being the best. Plus an out-going tenant not paying rent for six months........But I was just the 'property guy' not the very expensive agent! The land owner was the loser here. I moved to sunny Suffolk to put my money where my mouth is.....
The Green Deal was a non starter anyway.:rolleyes:
SS
 

solo

Member
Location
worcestershire
Did you see any variation?

Spent a lot of time on the phone on Friday exploring various options... Going to get a "free" assessment through the local Council I hope. Once I have one, I can argue for an exemption!!

Original EPC from 2010 did not have any realistic or viable options in the summary. I am not anticipating any change there for 2 out of 3 properties.

The problem is essentially, "solid walls"! Cost/m2 is not for the faint hearted... ASHP and replumbing would cost circa £10k, PV is not appropriate, as no FiT unless property is already EPC D. Triple glazing may help a little, but not enough...
There was a variation, but the original report was for the semi detached next door which is virtually a mirror image. Double glazing had been upgraded since the original report was the main change. Solid 9” walls aren’t the most energy efficient compared to another Cottage which has cavity wall insulation. One Cottage was fully refurbished 5 years ago at major capital cost, but the other two semi detached are on the waiting list but are not in a poor state, but just don’t tick the right boxes. Each has an oil fired aga which does hot water. There is a wood burner in the lounge and a panel heater in all rooms with timers. These heaters replaced older storage heaters because by the time tenants got in from work there just wasn’t enough heat to boost the temperature in the evenings. The aga also has a heat leak radiator which keeps the bathroom warm. The recent report suggested fitting modern storage heaters as one option, but I don’t feel that this will future proof the house for the medium to long term.

Plenty to do on the farm at this time of year so this isn’t a priority for my time just now. Tenants are happy having been there for 9 to10 years.
 

TheTallGuy

Member
Location
Cambridgeshire
Modern storage heaters are so much better than how they used to be - especially if you go with the dual mode ones with a built-in convector/top up heater as this means that you have a backup if the storage has run down during the day, but to get the benefit financially and epc wise you need to have a dual rate supply.
 

steveR

Member
Mixed Farmer
Modern storage heaters are so much better than how they used to be - especially if you go with the dual mode ones with a built-in convector/top up heater as this means that you have a backup if the storage has run down during the day, but to get the benefit financially and epc wise you need to have a dual rate supply.

Not sure how they perform in teh ratings as opposed to an LPG Condensing boiler.... but I will ask the question :)
 

OneStopEPC

Member
Trade
Location
Newark
It does look as if an exemption will be granted if the improvement will be of such a sum that the cost cannot be recouped. :)

There appears to be a cap of £2500, but I am far from sure quite how this all pans out. From checking the Approved Assessors under the Green deal finance scheme they all seem to be boiler suppliers and the like...:unsure:

I am sure that there will be Independent advisors and assessors out there...

The cost cap for total improvements to a property in installing recommended measures has now been set at £3500 inc VAT for the time being. This applies to the property as a whole, not individual measures, but can only include the cost of recommended energy efficiency measures, not other refurbishment or maintenance costs.

The cap has been introduced as Green Deal has, to all intents and purposes, collapsed. As a result, it was seen that the no cost exemption was being used as a get out clause to enable landlords not to improve their properties. This was not the Government's intent and so the rules were changed.

As for independent assessors and consultants, such as ourselves, they do exist. However, care should be taken to ensure that anyone you approach for advice is suitably qualified and insured to provide MEES services. Most domestic energy assessors on the National Register use "pay-per-click" insurance for providing EPCs which does not cover consultative services and MEES advice.
 

Steevo

Member
Location
Gloucestershire
The cost cap for total improvements to a property in installing recommended measures has now been set at £3500 inc VAT for the time being. This applies to the property as a whole, not individual measures, but can only include the cost of recommended energy efficiency measures, not other refurbishment or maintenance costs.

The cap has been introduced as Green Deal has, to all intents and purposes, collapsed. As a result, it was seen that the no cost exemption was being used as a get out clause to enable landlords not to improve their properties. This was not the Government's intent and so the rules were changed.

As for independent assessors and consultants, such as ourselves, they do exist. However, care should be taken to ensure that anyone you approach for advice is suitably qualified and insured to provide MEES services. Most domestic energy assessors on the National Register use "pay-per-click" insurance for providing EPCs which does not cover consultative services and MEES advice.

Could you expand on this a bit more please? I've only just seen this thread.

Interesting you comment regarding independent assessors and consultants. So far I've only found two types of consultants - those who just want to do a paper EPC type tick sheet which tells me nothing of any substance as it's all based on assumptions.....or those who have a product to sell and will do an assessment which is basically a sales pitch/quote and again an assumption that once the work is carried out it's OK - no need for any tests or such to give evidence on any improvement.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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