"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

CornishTone

Member
BASIS
Location
Cornwall

No doubting his Cornish heritage with a name like Pascoe, and it’s nice to hear him present with a bit of a sense of humour. Every time I’ve heard him speak so far he comes across as a bit dry and dour.

It’s a pretty remarkable hypothesis he puts forward and turns everything we’ve been told to believe about Aboriginal people on its head. Perhaps this should’ve been the first post/lesson of this thread, don’t accept what you’re taught without question?!
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
It is a remarkably "abstract" topic, HM.
Much more than mob grazing, or no-till, or anything in our toolboxes
Screenshot_20180421-013444.jpg

screenshot ctsy the Savory Institute, thought it was topical as an example.

Sorry for missing out so many tags @newholland but if any consolation you wouldn't have got one anyway!!:hilarious::arghh:
 

Jungle Bill

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Angus
I’ve just got back from a 2 day masterclass with Joel Salatin in the Netherlands, fascinating how much he manages to produce, how much soil he has regenerated and how well he markets everything. The best bit though was how he manages and understands people, including the succession issues. It was all done with a no nonsense sense of humour, despite a non English audience from a different culture, so I learnt a lot on handling a sometimes sceptical audience as well.
It was a great follow up to @Sheila Cooke ‘s Savory course last year.
If you get a chance to listen to Joel, go for it, everything he does may not be for you but there’s a lot to learn from how he does it.
 

Jungle Bill

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Angus
It is a remarkably "abstract" topic, HM.
Much more than mob grazing, or no-till, or anything in our toolboxesView attachment 662836
screenshot ctsy the Savory Institute, thought it was topical as an example.

Sorry for missing out so many tags @newholland but if any consolation you wouldn't have got one anyway!!:hilarious::arghh:

For me the starting point is the bottom right hand box, you need to know what you want out of life before you set out to achieve it, or as Joel Salatin asked us ‘Would you get in a car if the driver couldn’t tell you where he was going?’
 

Jungle Bill

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Angus
still something I want to do
My initial focus is to reduce & eliminate any synthetic fertilisers while building up soil biology & activity.
I would like to reduce my reliance on glyphosate as I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable about being so dependent on one product ( which is becoming increasingly less effective ) but also its potential negative effects on biology, however at this point, in a dryland cropping system, that is probably one step too far yet.
Largely, my 2 goals are decrease / eliminate external inputs ( $$$ ) and to improve soil / enviro health

err, is that enough for now ?



I never said it was easy :)

The Rodale Institute’s crimper looks a possibility to reduce herbicides, apologies if it’s been covered before.
https://rodaleinstitute.org/our-work/organic-no-till/organic-no-till-roller-crimper/
 
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So if we go back to the title of the thread, can someone give me an example of what HPG actually looks like? I get the gist of planning well in advance based on rest periods and several outcomes and the rest sort of ‘flows’ but I am a little stuck on getting started..

I worked on a holistically managed ranch in the Canadian prairies but wasn’t necessarily privy to the real core workings and the decision making. Basically just looked like mob grazing to me... haha
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
So if we go back to the title of the thread, can someone give me an example of what HPG actually looks like? I get the gist of planning well in advance based on rest periods and several outcomes and the rest sort of ‘flows’ but I am a little stuck on getting started..

I worked on a holistically managed ranch in the Canadian prairies but wasn’t necessarily privy to the real core workings and the decision making. Basically just looked like mob grazing to me... haha
It can look like any number of different methods in my limited experience - have had a message from Sheila Cooke and she will be keen to help us discover once she's back in the land of internet :)

For me it seldom looks like proper high density mob stocking simply because my social commitments don't always lend themselves to me doing daily farmwork - it still revolves around not eating the regrowth, keeping livestock moving on.. but you wouldn't necessarily see what is happening.
I sometimes will only spend an hour per week farming, check stock and open some gates, and having a good look around.
That said, we are probably enjoying the effects of the farm being under HM for many years, so the need to improve it is not as great as the need to maintain.

I hope that makes sense?

There are certain events and times of year when it makes it much easier to achieve more via animal impact, a big part of it is planning to make the best use of rain events, stressors that hasten reproduction, when is the time to focus on seed transfer for best effect - all these things are planned for already for next year, hopefully the weather follows the plan a little more than it has this year.

At the moment we are largely overgrazing due to lack of processing space for our cattle, again something that I can't control, but can easily allow for just the same - it is very flexible, once you have your goals.
 
It can look like any number of different methods in my limited experience - have had a message from Sheila Cooke and she will be keen to help us discover once she's back in the land of internet :)

For me it seldom looks like proper high density mob stocking simply because my social commitments don't always lend themselves to me doing daily farmwork - it still revolves around not eating the regrowth, keeping livestock moving on.. but you wouldn't necessarily see what is happening.
I sometimes will only spend an hour per week farming, check stock and open some gates, and having a good look around.
That said, we are probably enjoying the effects of the farm being under HM for many years, so the need to improve it is not as great as the need to maintain.

I hope that makes sense?

There are certain events and times of year when it makes it much easier to achieve more via animal impact, a big part of it is planning to make the best use of rain events, stressors that hasten reproduction, when is the time to focus on seed transfer for best effect - all these things are planned for already for next year, hopefully the weather follows the plan a little more than it has this year.

At the moment we are largely overgrazing due to lack of processing space for our cattle, again something that I can't control, but can easily allow for just the same - it is very flexible, once you have your goals.


Well like a lot of people I’m desperate to get the stragglers lambed so I can mob them up and start rotating as the benefits are clear to see. How much damage does set stocking do for the 2 months of the year I do it?

In simpler terms buying some bullocks in the spring, moving them daily until the grass stops growing and then selling them seems dead easy.

Sorry for sounding like a dunce I’m just sitting here with two ends of string trying to tie the loop
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Well like a lot of people I’m desperate to get the stragglers lambed so I can mob them up and start rotating as the benefits are clear to see. How much damage does set stocking do for the 2 months of the year I do it?

In simpler terms buying some bullocks in the spring, moving them daily until the grass stops growing and then selling them seems dead easy.

Sorry for sounding like a dunce I’m just sitting here with two ends of string trying to tie the loop
Wow, I wouldn't worry about sounding silly

Plenty of "experts" about that are too clever to even hold the piece of string let alone question what they do on their land!

Short periods of any "less than ideal" grazing or other stress are just fine, sometimes you can use them to your advantage even, but considering what folk will do to their soils with toxic stuff and tillage gear, a few months of being set-stocked for lambing is easy to overcome.

Remember is is more than just maximum output, or mob grazing technique, it is Holistic - and that involves working with certain things we would rather avoid but can't.

Yeah, I know what you mean about introductions, when you think about it though even coal and diesel are forms of stored solar energy, being released, certainly farming is more about sunlight and water than it is about "which pickup"

Have you ever seen threads on how to maximise your leaf area across a whole year?
:hilarious:
You are already ahead of the pack.
 

Agrispeed

Member
Location
Cornwall
I've been naughty :whistle:;
FullSizeRender-4.jpg

Following on from @Kiwi Pete and his successful arable silage attempt I'm following suit.

This is an attempt at maximising productivity with as little cultivations as possible. I quite like using a plough sparingly as its an easy way of getting a reasonably clean seedbed and also 'resetting' any compaction issues. As long as you aren't doing it too often that is. I want to get as much out of as little ploughing as possible, so I'm trying this system this year;

This field was spread with muck and destined to be first cut silage but got grazed instead , this is followed with another dose of FYM and ploughed for Oats and vetch (£630/t!), which I will hopefully cut in 10 weeks or so before min-till or direct drill in a brassica or forage rye for grazing dry cows in the spring (potentially creating a stale seedbed first), before going back into grass - probably some fairly nasty IRG or Westerwolds, which I will direct drill something more sustainable but less productive in a year or so. This gives us 3 crops (potentially 4) with one ploughing and potentially just a gentle ripping if its a dry spring next year. This seems like a better option than a grass to grass reseed in terms of output from the minimum cultivations. Is this holistic management?

Anyone tried anything similar?
 

CornishTone

Member
BASIS
Location
Cornwall
A lot of oats and vetch grown here for hay, often get a grazing off it along the way. Good feed and obviously fixes a nice bit of N.

Obviously a bit late now as you’ve already ploughed, but could you have grazed it a bit longer, burned it off with glyphosate (evil bad agronomist talking) then direct drilled the brassica to address the deeper compaction and soak up any residual N, grazed in spring and then direct drill oats and vetch after.

Obviously you have a fair amount of dung to get rid of but just trying to think how to reduce the passes over the ground. Any organic matter applied as dung and grown by grass would be burned off by the plough, drill and following min till I’m guessing.

I’m interested to see how this thread rationalises the integration of cropping and livestock in an HM context so I keep trying to think like I think Pete thinks. This could be painful!
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
I've been naughty :whistle:;
View attachment 663178
Following on from @Kiwi Pete and his successful arable silage attempt I'm following suit.

This is an attempt at maximising productivity with as little cultivations as possible. I quite like using a plough sparingly as its an easy way of getting a reasonably clean seedbed and also 'resetting' any compaction issues. As long as you aren't doing it too often that is. I want to get as much out of as little ploughing as possible, so I'm trying this system this year;

This field was spread with muck and destined to be first cut silage but got grazed instead , this is followed with another dose of FYM and ploughed for Oats and vetch (£630/t!), which I will hopefully cut in 10 weeks or so before min-till or direct drill in a brassica or forage rye for grazing dry cows in the spring (potentially creating a stale seedbed first), before going back into grass - probably some fairly nasty IRG or Westerwolds, which I will direct drill something more sustainable but less productive in a year or so. This gives us 3 crops (potentially 4) with one ploughing and potentially just a gentle ripping if its a dry spring next year. This seems like a better option than a grass to grass reseed in terms of output from the minimum cultivations. Is this holistic management?

Anyone tried anything similar?
Cunning plan (y)
I like cunning plans, especially when something as simple can save so much in way of expenditure later - that is what it is all about.
Have seen similar "rotations" follow sacrifice-paddock type winter grazing, with very similar crops used and they had great outcomes.
One was just cow-ploughed over a few winter weeks with literally tons of silage, first crop was chocker with docks and scotch thistle but a shallow plough after that reduced them nicely.
It hit the ground running when finally regrassed, that was the main thing, it was definitely not just a typical "throw together" that wanted pampered and sprayed and fertilised - and produces well with each crop.
I would call it a successful way to arrive at reseeded pasture - plenty of different ways of achieving that, nearly all of them work out costly or less than ideal in some respect - which this didn't.

@CornishTone - thinking the way I think you think I think is always going to hurt your head.
Some days it even hurts mine, and I am used to it :)
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
As long as I’m thinking along the right lines Pete, I’ll put up with the pain!!!
Well, you have possibly heard me speak of my mate Jeff, he has what I would call holistic management and integrated cropping and livestock..

They have a family farm, his daughter is about 20 and they pitch in, elder daughter is away doing something, uni anyway..

I think about 900 acres or so is in rotation and they have another area set aside just for grazing, basically he has a pea, CC, CC, WW, CC, and then a permanent pasture phase.
Peas are combined and the pea hay baled up, winter feed and sells a little to gardeners etc
Then he has a couple of cover crops, usually just mixes of home-saved seed, but has a lot of diversity in them, first one is mainly spring sown cereals and turnips and stuff, and clover
Second one assesses the level of groundcover, and is likely just rows of kale and swedes into the clover - winter stock food but lasts a fair bit of the year as well, as sheep are lambed on the grass block and then bought closer later
Crops are grazed until about spent and then chopped up with those speed disc/multidiscs and then winter wheat/winter barley
Stubbles are topped up with clover as necessary, I should mention that white clover is used as permanent growing groundcover; livestock are always present unless there is a cashcrop growing, it is not a "bare ground system" but a living system, and the cows/calf just cruise around in mobs eating behind a wire to achieve what he wants
After the wheat he throws on quite a bit of timothy as it gives him good easycare pasture along with all the clover- and they get winters off to just grow, with all the covercrop area year-round there isn't much need for skinning out pastures.

Always a lot going on but no really much of it is cultivation, quite a bit of drilling and speed-discing but the tractor does more hauling grain hours.
Bit of harvesting and lots of cattle and sheep - stock and cropping - as opposed to stock or cropping.
Mostly planning, but of course you can drill in the rain with living cover and light gear, if need be, so stuff happens on time.

I think they are the key points,
Having simultaneous rather than exclusive operations
Integration- maintaining the covers with livestock as tools - win win
Simple systems
Low overheads
Low machine hours help keep costs low
Lower output means inputs are lower still, it is a cost-based vs output-driven system, resilient to cereal volatility
Lifestyle
Profitable
 

ISCO

Member
Location
North East
0
I remember vividly going to my first and only HM meeting and being told how my boss was going to turn the power of the sun into two weeks holiday with the wife and kids and replace the farm truck. Think it was a bit too much for my little brain as an introduction
I think I am at about the same stage of understanding as you. I think it is a good idea and rotational graze but do not know how to go to next stage
 

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