Yield drop when moving to direct drilling

Goodbeef · May 20, 2018

After people’s thoughts and experiences on making the switch from min tilling to direct drilling.

Currently running a sumo followed by a Kuhn speedliner (similar to horsch/vaderstad) and growing very good crops. Using plenty of muck in various forms and got a good rotation of crops. All straw except rape is baled for livestock.

We are in Lancashire, not the driest place in the country, and think we can make a success of moving over to dd but at what cost in that period?

Should we maybe have a spell strip tilling for a few years or just jump in at the deep end?

Warp Land Farmer · May 20, 2018

If your soils are level, well drained and fertile jump in. I'm assuming that you have good worm populations from all the muck.

Goodbeef · May 20, 2018

Warp Land Farmer said:
If your soils are level, well drained and fertile jump in. I'm assuming that you have good worm populations from all the muck.

Yeah nice and level from min tilling, we are on light and medium soils. High in phosphate from veg growing in grandfathers era but all other indices are good.

Drainage is ok, always some bits to do though!

Badshot · May 20, 2018

The important thing when moving to DD is how soft the fields are.
I've a few two years ploughed out of grass, yes I know should have DD into it, didn't have the tools or the balls, that are as soft as buggery.

chaffcutter · May 20, 2018

Go and see some people doing the job for a while on similar soils, you can learn something from everyone a lot more reliably when you are looking at the crops. A few days doing that and going to Groundswell will pay dividends.

Feldspar · May 20, 2018

Goodbeef said:
Yeah nice and level from min tilling, we are on light and medium soils. High in phosphate from veg growing in grandfathers era but all other indices are good.

Drainage is ok, always some bits to do though!

With the history of muck and a lighter soil type you probably have the best platform from which to start. I would say though that if direct drilling stops you using as much muck that the cultivation + muck is probably going to give you better results than no-till, cover crops and no muck. Not definite, but if I had to hazard a guess.

Goodbeef · May 20, 2018

Feldspar said:
With the history of muck and a lighter soil type you probably have the best platform from which to start. I would say though that if direct drilling stops you using as much muck that the cultivation + muck is probably going to give you better results than no-till, cover crops and no muck. Not definite, but if I had to hazard a guess.

Cattle muck goes on at 25t/ha and we make sure it is reasonably well rotted. With the straw removed and muck on never really see the need to have to bury it as if we were applying huge amounts. Might look a little scruffy but the crop soon hides it!

With a reasonable amounts of spring cropping too, would still grow cover crops over winter.

I can see the benefits and cost reductions of direct drilling but if that comes at a cost in reduced yield amounting to more than the saving then we are better sticking as we are?

Brisel · May 21, 2018

Goodbeef said:
I can see the benefits and cost reductions of direct drilling but if that comes at a cost in reduced yield amounting to more than the saving then we are better sticking as we are?

I think that this is the main sticking point of DD. Some of the hard core no tillers had a farm sale for all their cultivation equipment, so they weren't tempted to go back easily. Tony Reynolds is one such person who did this. His yields dropped to their lowest point in year 3 but started to rise again afterwards & now exceed what he was getting before.

I chose a stepping stone of strip till drilling between my previous min till (deep non inversion tillage similar to yours) and future no till. I was at the farm of the current FW Farm Manager of the Year at the weekend & they have been wanting to get to no till for years but trialling it on some fields is being tricky. It doesn't take a lot of extra yield to pay for a lot of cultivation but that's just taking a snapshot. IMO you'll have some short term pain for long term gain.

I sold 2 tractors, a drill & a plough. I bought a Claydon drill, straw rake, wider set of rolls & another slug pellet applicator. All have had plenty of use! I'm still doing the same number of passes but these are cheaper and faster passes. Without glyphosate and slug control DD would be unviable here.

Goodbeef · May 21, 2018

Brisel said:
I think that this is the main sticking point of DD. Some of the hard core no tillers had a farm sale for all their cultivation equipment, so they weren't tempted to go back easily. Tony Reynolds is one such person who did this. His yields dropped to their lowest point in year 3 but started to rise again afterwards & now exceed what he was getting before.

I chose a stepping stone of strip till drilling between my previous min till (deep non inversion tillage similar to yours) and future no till. I was at the farm of the current FW Farm Manager of the Year at the weekend & they have been wanting to get to no till for years but trialling it on some fields is being tricky. It doesn't take a lot of extra yield to pay for a lot of cultivation but that's just taking a snapshot. IMO you'll have some short term pain for long term gain.

I sold 2 tractors, a drill & a plough. I bought a Claydon drill, straw rake, wider set of rolls & another slug pellet applicator. All have had plenty of use! I'm still doing the same number of passes but these are cheaper and faster passes. Without glyphosate and slug control DD would be unviable here.

Yes without glyphosate it isn’t going to work, so hopefully it is a tool that doesn’t get taken away!

Under the system we use at the moment, we only use about 6kg/ha in two splits on the rape, we don’t get battered by them (prob down to the straw removal and muck).

Do you have any idea on how much yields dropped in year 3 and where they have got to now?

Also we are lucky in the fact we don’t have any black grass on the farm, some neighbours have small amounts around us, our biggest problem is bromes at the moment.

yellow belly · May 22, 2018

Any yield loss depends on the year the soil and the crop
Just the same as the yield loss from min till

And ploughing

Brisel · May 22, 2018

Goodbeef said:
Yes without glyphosate it isn’t going to work, so hopefully it is a tool that doesn’t get taken away!

Under the system we use at the moment, we only use about 6kg/ha in two splits on the rape, we don’t get battered by them (prob down to the straw removal and muck).

Do you have any idea on how much yields dropped in year 3 and where they have got to now?

Also we are lucky in the fact we don’t have any black grass on the farm, some neighbours have small amounts around us, our biggest problem is bromes at the moment.

I can't remember what his yields dropped by but his seed rates & nitrogen rates went up by around 20% initially then fell back. Could you afford to drop 10-15% yield for a couple of years if you reduced your overheads and expectations accordingly? Would you wait until BPS goes before making such a move in the hope that you got some grant help in converting??

I'm in year 2 of strip tillage. Slug pellet use is up by another pass on osr and the wheat afterwards. Each pass with Sluxx ferric phospate costs around £16/ha plus a couple of quid to apply them. Yields? Hard to say but I was in line with my 6 year average except for spring barley which was down by 15% but many had similar problems with this crop last summer. Most of that loss was for brackling and nearly 1 t/ha of ears I couldn't get in the header.

IMO spring crops are the hardest to direct drill well. Wheat, beans & osr are easy by comparison. Linseed had a shocking year too but some of this was down to late entry after stubble turnips & the dry weather after drilling

Sterile brome loves DD. You'll need to have more spring crops in your rotation to help combat this & be prepared to use plenty of glyphosate pre drilling. Cover crops will take up a good % of the £ savings of power & machinery but getting your soil biology up to speed is critical to the success of DD. If you're looking at Countryside Stewardship then you can get £114/ha under SW6 which pays for cover crop seed & someone to sow them for you if you chose.

DD is a system, not a method of sowing. Membership of BASE UK and some time in the DD forums in here are a good investment too.

tw15 · May 22, 2018

Yield drop ?? I know others have had it but I think it all ,depends where you come from as to speak . For the last 12-15 years before going to dd mimtill was just that 3-4 inch max. Did do a bit of subsoiled osr one in three/ four but not them rip it up mix it up power hungry contraptions some call mim till so here we haven't had the yield drop Now 6 years in we are finding the weed burden is dropping as the seed bank is slowly declining and any new seeds are kept near the top to get to grow and then destroy .Ave osr about 1.6 t ha , ww 10t ha plus , sb 7.4tha .

Clive · May 22, 2018

There is no yield drop - it’s a myth that can be managed with N plus an understanding of c:n ratios

We went mintill to strip till, back to min till and then finally successfully to zerotill If I did it all again I would have given the strip till part a miss in my soils but maybe different for others

Welcome to come visit our farm if you like anytime

Goodbeef · May 22, 2018

Brisel said:
I can't remember what his yields dropped by but his seed rates & nitrogen rates went up by around 20% initially then fell back. Could you afford to drop 10-15% yield for a couple of years if you reduced your overheads and expectations accordingly? Would you wait until BPS goes before making such a move in the hope that you got some grant help in converting??

I'm in year 2 of strip tillage. Slug pellet use is up by another pass on osr and the wheat afterwards. Each pass with Sluxx ferric phospate costs around £16/ha plus a couple of quid to apply them. Yields? Hard to say but I was in line with my 6 year average except for spring barley which was down by 15% but many had similar problems with this crop last summer. Most of that loss was for brackling and nearly 1 t/ha of ears I couldn't get in the header.

IMO spring crops are the hardest to direct drill well. Wheat, beans & osr are easy by comparison. Linseed had a shocking year too but some of this was down to late entry after stubble turnips & the dry weather after drilling

Sterile brome loves DD. You'll need to have more spring crops in your rotation to help combat this & be prepared to use plenty of glyphosate pre drilling. Cover crops will take up a good % of the £ savings of power & machinery but getting your soil biology up to speed is critical to the success of DD. If you're looking at Countryside Stewardship then you can get £114/ha under SW6 which pays for cover crop seed & someone to sow them for you if you chose.

DD is a system, not a method of sowing. Membership of BASE UK and some time in the DD forums in here are a good investment too.

Yes spring crops are usually grown on the farm anyway, more so because of the weather rather than through choice. Spring barley is normally the choice but spring beans and oats have been grown in the past and have got lupins in for the first time this year (wanted a spring break crop and protein for the cattle).

Know what you mean about it being a system, still lots to learn!

Goodbeef · May 22, 2018

Clive said:
There is no yield drop - it’s a myth that can be managed with N plus an understanding of c:n ratios

We went mintill to strip till, back to min till and then finally successfully to zerotill If I did it all again I would have given the strip till part a miss in my soils but maybe different for others

Welcome to come visit our farm if you like anytime

I think I will take you up on that offer! Listened to you speak at Liverpool discussion society which was excellent!

What has changed with your N applications?

Flat 10 · May 23, 2018

tw15 said:
Yield drop ?? I know others have had it but I think it all ,depends where you come from as to speak . For the last 12-15 years before going to dd mimtill was just that 3-4 inch max. Did do a bit of subsoiled osr one in three/ four but not them rip it up mix it up power hungry contraptions some call mim till so here we haven't had the yield drop Now 6 years in we are finding the weed burden is dropping as the seed bank is slowly declining and any new seeds are kept near the top to get to grow and then destroy .Ave osr about 1.6 t ha , ww 10t ha plus , sb 7.4tha .

Very impressive cereal yields. Please can you share what drill you use?

tw15 · May 23, 2018

pillar laser disc hoe on youtube under the title pillar laser disc hoe drill uk

Mr Charisma · May 24, 2018

I'm expecting quite a yield loss in this my first year DD compared to min till ,,,,,,, will know for sure in a few weeks time ,

If I had a combine on tracks I'm sure that would help , certainly current combine is not very well endowed when it comes to wheel equipment and it shows in the one crop after beans ,

It would also worry me getting straw off the field and the muck back on in a damp year ,,,, a job that has to be done and can't just turn the chopper on and think I will sort out the chopped straw at a latter date . If I had better drained self structuring soils then it may not be such a problem

Deutzdx3 · May 24, 2018

Do half the farm dd and the other half your current way, weigh up the difference in yield and savings in fuel and time. If there is a slight yield drop but you’ve save 30k in fuel and labour but profits the same if not more it’s a winner. With the extra time you have you can diversify and make other income streams on farm. Work smarter, not harder.

Mr Charisma · May 24, 2018

Deutzdx3 said:
Do half the farm dd and the other half your current way, weigh up the difference in yield and savings in fuel and time. If there is a slight yield drop but you’ve save 30k in fuel and labour but profits the same if not more it’s a winner. With the extra time you have you can diversify and make other income streams on farm. Work smarter, not harder.

Is 1 ton per acre to much of a yield drop because that is where I am thinking it will be at the moment , but time will tell

Yield drop when moving to direct drilling

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