"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

Karliboy

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
West Yorkshire
I always like to find out how many generations people have been farming.

I don’t know any further back than grandad really only that his dad was miner / alcoholic

My mums side I know nothing only that great grandad was a sheep farmer down the valley but that’s about it on that side

Around Here I see a few off three generation farmers which then goes bust

1st starts it up
2nd builds it up
3rd f**ks it up
 

Crofter64

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Quebec, Canada
This is the excellent home made type I liked that a friend had made. Not my handiwork, far too smart.
View attachment 719226
The weakest point was the float valve. a decent Jobe valve (mega bucks) would be better IMO, very simple and reasonably stockproof though
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Here's one of my smart, but quite expensive big kiwi tech troughs. They have solid aluminium and resin floats, and are very well made. Designed for bull beef apparently, and it shows.
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It’s unusual to see horns on dairy cows any more. Why do you leave them?
 

Crofter64

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Quebec, Canada
I always like to find out how many generations people have been farming.

I don’t know any further back than grandad really only that his dad was miner / alcoholic

My mums side I know nothing only that great grandad was a sheep farmer down the valley but that’s about it on that side

Around Here I see a few off three generation farmers which then goes bust

1st starts it up
2nd builds it up
3rd fudges it up
A they say in the middle East. Camel driver back to camel driver in three generations.


I think thank a majority of people in the world have farming, or at least labouring , two or three generations back. Its just that they’ve washed the soil off and no longer remember. It is shocking how quickly the knowledge of the land can disappear. @kiwi Pete’s Dad’s place is a perfect example. If you can’t see what’s in front of you, you certainly won’t be able to understand it.
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
I always like to find out how many generations people have been farming.

I don’t know any further back than grandad really only that his dad was miner / alcoholic

My mums side I know nothing only that great grandad was a sheep farmer down the valley but that’s about it on that side

Around Here I see a few off three generation farmers which then goes bust

1st starts it up
2nd builds it up
3rd fudges it up
The saying here is "rags to rags in 3 generations" and we've seen it many times.

Dad was the first generation in our family. His dad worked in the town sewage works and his grandad ran a big haulage company in the days of horse and cart.
 

Agrispeed

Member
Location
Cornwall
It’s unusual to see horns on dairy cows any more. Why do you leave them?

Mainly habit. I used to work for a chap who left them on (he was biodynamic assured but wasnt really that mad) and I got used to them, When I moved to this farm we bought a lot of his cows as the herd nucleus so most had horns and I haven't used a dehorning iron since. As long as temprement is good and you account for them in how you house the cows then they are not an issue. The danger is more people who aren't used to them than any real risk from the cows - if a cow wants to get you then she'll kill you with or without.

The anatomy of horns is quite interesting. They do serve a purpose apart from defence as they are part of the sinus cavity - polled breeds have a bulge in their forehead that makes an equivalent space - I don't know if dehorning effects a cows health in that respect but it would be an interesting comparison.

The Friesian in that pic has the best set of the farm, they must be 18" long and I can't get my hand around them at the base. Some breeds horns are much better formed than others. I have half a dozen or so NormandieXGuernseys and their horns are no where as nicely formed, we've dehorned 2 as they were growing in.
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Cows without horns just don't look right to me now.:)
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
I always like to find out how many generations people have been farming.

I don’t know any further back than grandad really only that his dad was miner / alcoholic

My mums side I know nothing only that great grandad was a sheep farmer down the valley but that’s about it on that side

Around Here I see a few off three generation farmers which then goes bust

1st starts it up
2nd builds it up
3rd fudges it up
at least five generations here same place
ancestors were like a bloody plague around here, several got shipped of to Aus, the bad buggers
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
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All our ewes have lambed now, so they can go with their mates until their lambs are big enough to yard to vaccinate. Won't be long, looking at the first cycle lambs :)

3 massive dead singles, as long as the ewe's backs....

So that is what my Snowline 2ths will do on boy's land with no real input, @Global ovine :

27 ewes rearing 55 lambs, plusone on the bottle for "pet day" :rolleyes:
10 sets of triplets from 29 ewes to the ram
5 dead lambs (so far.)
Too much feeding is completely my own fault, obviously we're happy with 1.9 lambs per ewe to the ram.

(Now to keep them alive... so the same number go on the truck!)

Any ideas how to improve my twinning ratio - not complaining as triplets are better than singles for what we do, but always keen to learn a thing about feeding.
I probably wouldn't cull based on too many lambs at foot, with a small hobby mob these mouths matter.
 
View attachment 719334 View attachment 719332
All our ewes have lambed now, so they can go with their mates until their lambs are big enough to yard to vaccinate. Won't be long, looking at the first cycle lambs :)

3 massive dead singles, as long as the ewe's backs....

So that is what my Snowline 2ths will do on boy's land with no real input, @Global ovine :

27 ewes rearing 55 lambs, plusone on the bottle for "pet day" :rolleyes:
10 sets of triplets from 29 ewes to the ram
5 dead lambs (so far.)
Too much feeding is completely my own fault, obviously we're happy with 1.9 lambs per ewe to the ram.

(Now to keep them alive... so the same number go on the truck!)

Any ideas how to improve my twinning ratio - not complaining as triplets are better than singles for what we do, but always keen to learn a thing about feeding.
I probably wouldn't cull based on too many lambs at foot, with a small hobby mob these mouths matter.


Well done. Culling for control of fecundity would not work as you don't control the genetics of the flock, McDonald family do via their selection. The only way I see for you to alter the litter size ratios is to not let them get so heavy up to mating. Obviously the mob is small and not the farm's no.1 priority, so restricting them may be difficult. What it does show is these ewes are good doers and I suspect they will be back in mating condition by weaning, irrespective of weaning 3 or 1. I could suggest adding more sheep, but that may not suit your desired life style.
 

Blaithin

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Alberta
I’m assuming sheep are opposite of cattle when it comes to multiple births. With cattle they seem more prone to multiple births the lower their condition is. Sheep have multiples more easily the better conditioned they are?
 

Agrispeed

Member
Location
Cornwall
I’m assuming sheep are opposite of cattle when it comes to multiple births. With cattle they seem more prone to multiple births the lower their condition is. Sheep have multiples more easily the better conditioned they are?

I think with cattle there is a big genetic factor. Quite often you can trace twins through family groups.

Having said that (and now directly contradicting myself:facepalm:) I was just thinking about this as I haven't had a set twins in about 3 years, despite having 2 sets of twins in the milking herd.
 

Blaithin

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Alberta
I think with cattle there is a big genetic factor. Quite often you can trace twins through family groups.

Having said that (and now directly contradicting myself:facepalm:) I was just thinking about this as I haven't had a set twins in about 3 years, despite having 2 sets of twins in the milking herd.
Yes, I know it’s genetic. Twins more likely to throw twins. Simmentals are known as very twinny. Etc. Etc.

However there are studies that point towards lower conditioned cows throwing twins more often than then over conditioned. Think this becomes particularly obvious in older cattle all of a sudden having their first set of twins at an older age.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Well done. Culling for control of fecundity would not work as you don't control the genetics of the flock, McDonald family do via their selection. The only way I see for you to alter the litter size ratios is to not let them get so heavy up to mating. Obviously the mob is small and not the farm's no.1 priority, so restricting them may be difficult. What it does show is these ewes are good doers and I suspect they will be back in mating condition by weaning, irrespective of weaning 3 or 1. I could suggest adding more sheep, but that may not suit your desired life style.
Thanks, that backs up my own feeling and research 100%.
If you are speaking to the McDonalds, feel free to pass it on (y)

I feel if they can do this, they will easily be more profitable vs. wintering store lambs or hoggets, even if it means altering my wintering system to accomodate more ewes on the ground.

A bag of swede or turnip seed followed by a mob of big cattle is easy feed!

$100×1.9÷52 weeks = roughly $3.60 per ewe per week? it takes good store buying to beat that, even at lower lamb output and farmgate prices.
 
At current lamb prices no other sheep system beats that with so many lambs.
Your production really demonstrates that genetics selected in a harsher environment to express plenty of twins can actually do much better when put in a more friendly environment. I have been told by several further south of you in the Catlins that your last summer was as dry as it has ever been in their memory. In many parts further north and inland, your last summer was barely a normal summer for them. So you can probably rest assured that similar production levels can be regularly achieved. Did you scan to hold back your single carrying ewes? I'm sure the Burgess boys would be passing your gate several times a week with their scanning kit.
With cattle to top your pastures to maintain the quality shown in the photos above, growing all these wee fellas to saleable weights should be a dozzie.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Some sheep pictures, as promised.
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Charlie and I moved the ram/wether mob in with the wet-dries, by sitting down in the right place at the right time and looking at cowpats
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We mobbed the lambed ewes up and put them down the back corner of the farm where there is good shelter, as the equinox is nearly upon us a dirty week is quite on the cards - hence the timings of our lambing.
I had my wires crossed before, there are 53 lambs and 26 ewes in here.
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"Just a light nibble" is all they are doing, to maximise milk and regrowth. These older paddocks don't have much in the way of winter activity, and were last grazed about this day in July - so my 60 days of planned recovery on the grazing chart is spot on (y)
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Hogget mob looking fit, with their woolly jackets in a bale :cool: 27 of these, plus a couple of 3/4 dorpers (one already slipped her twins, inbreeding @Crofter64 ??)
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I have these moving quite fast now, again we could graze twice as hard and still have full bellies - but then there's a bloat risk if they gorge on this nice clover if I hold them up. Gave the trough a roll to the middle of the paddock.
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So I'll just keep them going on at this stage.
I have to be mindful that not only is the weather likely to turn, but also we've got 65 300 kilo bulls about to show up, and more after that... so they will be my tramplers.
No need to make work for myself just yet, hence the stock are outspanning a bit - plenty of time to trample residues in and fencing to do.

Really excelled myself, spent an hour and a half at it today, time for a hydraulic sandwich and a book :cool:
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
At current lamb prices no other sheep system beats that with so many lambs.
Your production really demonstrates that genetics selected in a harsher environment to express plenty of twins can actually do much better when put in a more friendly environment. I have been told by several further south of you in the Catlins that your last summer was as dry as it has ever been in their memory. In many parts further north and inland, your last summer was barely a normal summer for them. So you can probably rest assured that similar production levels can be regularly achieved. Did you scan to hold back your single carrying ewes? I'm sure the Burgess boys would be passing your gate several times a week with their scanning kit.
With cattle to top your pastures to maintain the quality shown in the photos above, growing all these wee fellas to saleable weights should be a dozzie.
I did scan, but young Dave was in Aussie until these girls were well into their last month of gestation, so there wasn't really the opportunity there to identify multiples and singles at that late stage.

So I can't really blame him at all, that most all of my single-marked ewes are rearing 3.... nor will I complain!!

I will purple-tag the wet-dries, black tag the dry + one I had to assist, and scan earlier next year for sure - and then I can do something proactive about my singles.
I would likely split the mob, run the multiples a cell ahead of the singles and rams, and use them to follow to limit intake a little.

Yes, it was a bit blimmin dry alright, other areas all around us had good rain while we baked. Even south of Milton was growing well before we had a skiff of rain here.

People are starting to call us "those people with the really green farm" based on last summer - so that makes me as happy as a muddy pig.
 
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Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
I’m assuming sheep are opposite of cattle when it comes to multiple births. With cattle they seem more prone to multiple births the lower their condition is. Sheep have multiples more easily the better conditioned they are?
Yes I believe they will shed more eggs per ovulation, if in good nick. These fatties don't know about hunger.

As discussed it is quite a job to control intake with only 60 odd sheep in a mob with good covers; then if you split it in half again for breeding, it makes an act of fencing.
I guess by the time you factor a heap of extra time spent with fencing reels then a lost lamb isn't the end of the world, but I do care about this wee mob, they look after us alright!
They will likely be mobbed up with the bulls most of summer, which could well help the obesity epidemic, and I won't wean their lambs as I'm sure the ewes know when to.

I sort of know what everyone else does, but my context is rather different to most commercial sheep operations - it has to be to survive in this type of grazing system, with grass they can hide in, etc

A few more this year, I may even graze Harrison's hoggets here and then keep some back as payment.
 
@Kiwi Pete you are smaller than i first believed - either that or your sheep are MAHUSIVE.
thanks for the pics./
re trips to twins - mayhaps too much flushing prior to the tup - i wouldnt change anything for a year or so as ive noticed our ewes work in some kinda cycle ie. 32232232...etc or in one case 111111311 fml.
as for splitting trips/twins foward and holding back the singles for the biguns - might be a goer depending on your farm forage stocks in those last few weeks -hold back the singles /pushfoward the trips sort of deal. depends on how much extra effort is needed with fencing.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
we scan our few but don't split them up, it gets silly when you only have a few, mainly scan so we can get rid of barren ewes
That's our primary reason to scan, but even then I have only given the dry one the black tag and kept them in their mob for numbers (and feet)

..and they both had twins this year so good job I didn't eat them or sell them on.

It isn't much work to slap a colour tag in them - I will possibly even put calf type tags in them with an EID button tag backed onto a small number flag-tag just to get into some recording, I think I would learn by doing so, perhaps not.

But it would come in handy if I decide to put a bit of pressure on them in future, just to see who makes the money and who is looking after "number 1"

But like building anything up, numbers matter, don't they?
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
@Kiwi Pete you are smaller than i first believed - either that or your sheep are MAHUSIVE.
thanks for the pics./
re trips to twins - mayhaps too much flushing prior to the tup - i wouldnt change anything for a year or so as ive noticed our ewes work in some kinda cycle ie. 32232232...etc or in one case 111111311 fml.
as for splitting trips/twins foward and holding back the singles for the biguns - might be a goer depending on your farm forage stocks in those last few weeks -hold back the singles /pushfoward the trips sort of deal. depends on how much extra effort is needed with fencing.
No worries (y) I take photo records of everything, so simple to do and my phone is always handy :rolleyes::whistle:

I can't see it being too much bother, as I tend to use a long fences and then split the strips into squares the fences are very quick to throw up. Would just mean 4 short fences instead of 3.

Consolidating mobs is still the quick way to farm, I feel I can see things better in a short while if I am looking at the whole operation in one group. Things stand out faster and you adjust more precisely to those constant changes - like allocating area based on pasture growth rates and environmental concerns, it's much easier to adjust 2 breaks than 9!

That was one big thing I learned on the holistic dairy farm: allocate based on what's happening today, and the plan, then you don't dig a hole for yourself - a bit contrary to the "just bang on some nitrogen and hope" style of management, more proactive. (y)
It has to be totally adaptable.
 

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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