We do recording with pen and paper and do use it to select replacements as well as what we are looking at, the last couple years we have kept all the ewe lambs separately then selected by getting rid of what we don't want, on paper first then by eye last year we sold half of them
"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..
- Thread starter Kiwi Pete
- Start date
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
I'm quite interested in recording some things to aid the operation and help maintain the inbuilt functionality
Things like how close mum will let me get to her lambs and how quickly the lamb will bleat and run to mum, as I think these have a bearing on lamb survival outside in less ideal conditions than this spring.
Even the daisies aren't evident, so I predict a dry one, will be interesting in a month to see what the hawthorn has to say: never seen have so many flowering as last year and it was both record warm + record dry here
Could be all bull-paki too
time will tell
Things like how close mum will let me get to her lambs and how quickly the lamb will bleat and run to mum, as I think these have a bearing on lamb survival outside in less ideal conditions than this spring.
Even the daisies aren't evident, so I predict a dry one, will be interesting in a month to see what the hawthorn has to say: never seen have so many flowering as last year and it was both record warm + record dry here
Could be all bull-paki too
time will tell
Thats quite interesting, I wonder what the evolutionary reason is? Looking at it the last set of twins we had was the first set out of a 7th calf suckler cow.
It would make sense as my cows would generally have a reasonable amount of condition at breeding (and some are frankly morbidly obese) and I get very few twins. Oddly, he two sets of twins I do have are always a bit lower condition than the average, but I'm not sure thats related.
Twins behaviour is really interesting. The two sets I have are never more than 20' away from their twin and they drink, lie and come in for milking together, always the same one in the lead. We had collars on the cows last week reading how they interact with each other (and badgers setts) and it'll be interesting to see who the social groups are.
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Interesting alright.
My sisters are identical twins, and you are right about being inseparable...
They quite often run late because one will have to go home to change, because they will telepathically dress identically
but then, they only live 3 doors away from each other...
Of course I've grown accustomed to it but they are definitely more than just sisters, I do feel sorry for past boyfriends because they have always had to play second fiddle (dodgy pun not intended) to the sibling.
Of interest to me was their ability to sustain identical injuries simultaneously while separated: one got clipped by a car on a crossing, the other got clipped by another skiier, both at 3.35pm and both ruptured the same disc - several hundred km apart (I realise it's coincidence)
Mum laughed aloud when the second hospital rang.
My sisters are identical twins, and you are right about being inseparable...
They quite often run late because one will have to go home to change, because they will telepathically dress identically
but then, they only live 3 doors away from each other...
Of course I've grown accustomed to it but they are definitely more than just sisters, I do feel sorry for past boyfriends because they have always had to play second fiddle (dodgy pun not intended) to the sibling.
Of interest to me was their ability to sustain identical injuries simultaneously while separated: one got clipped by a car on a crossing, the other got clipped by another skiier, both at 3.35pm and both ruptured the same disc - several hundred km apart (I realise it's coincidence)
Mum laughed aloud when the second hospital rang.
I think it’s just how some organisms have evolved to react to stress.
When a pine tree feels stressed due to drought or flooding, it reacts by producing more pine cones than less stressful years. When a coyote population feels like it’s stressed by hunting, disease, etc. then their litter sizes will increase. When cattle are in lower condition they seem more prone to multiple births.
However I wonder if multiple births resulting from condition are those less likely to throw twins themselves as it wouldn’t be as genetic then would it? It’s not the bull causing the egg to split, it’s not the cow being genetically predispositioned to releasing multiple eggs, it’s the environment causing affects. Therefore calves from a well conditioned cow who regularly has twins may be the ones with the genetic potential to do so themselves while calves from a poor conditioned cow who randomly has twins at an older age could be less likely to?
My Fleckvieh had twins as a heifer (rare enough), then had a single, but then failed to breed back AI before I picked her up at the dairy so she was in very good shape when live covered by my bull. She had a large single calf as a third calver. In comparison last years grass was poor and she took a bit to come back around. She rebred this spring at a lower condition than the previous breeding. We will see if this results in a twin birth.
We have had four sets of twins in the last year from 40 or so cows, very high for us, a few years ago we were not seeing any
thinking about the cows that had twins I am not sure I "buy" the thin cows thing
what do others think about twins ? some on here don't seem to like them and yes they can be a bit of bother but in a small herd that's not so bad, oddly we were just working out our ave sale price for the calves tonight and if you do it per cow calved the twins don't half bump up the ave and I don't think they cost much more to get to 10 months than a single would, they can pull the cows about a bit though and in a way its a shame more cows don't have twins then they could be split off and fed accordingly
thinking about the cows that had twins I am not sure I "buy" the thin cows thing
what do others think about twins ? some on here don't seem to like them and yes they can be a bit of bother but in a small herd that's not so bad, oddly we were just working out our ave sale price for the calves tonight and if you do it per cow calved the twins don't half bump up the ave and I don't think they cost much more to get to 10 months than a single would, they can pull the cows about a bit though and in a way its a shame more cows don't have twins then they could be split off and fed accordingly
I’d prefer twins. Higher risk births but otherwise I think they pay off. Especially if you’ve bred for milky cows that can raise them. Yes the cows might take more feed and the calves might wean a bit smaller than singles, but still...
It’s why I do dairy crosses that can raise multiples. Even if the calves are weaned in the 500-600 range instead of the 600+ of a single, that means the cow is weaning at times over 2000 lbs per lactation. No single will ever wean that. Plus you generally get more per pound on the light calves so by dividing that 2000 lbs up between multiple animals you could be getting easily 20-30 cents more per pound than if it was one animal to equal that weight.
However I have a small herd. I realize in larger, range herds they are more often than not, pains.
It’s why I do dairy crosses that can raise multiples. Even if the calves are weaned in the 500-600 range instead of the 600+ of a single, that means the cow is weaning at times over 2000 lbs per lactation. No single will ever wean that. Plus you generally get more per pound on the light calves so by dividing that 2000 lbs up between multiple animals you could be getting easily 20-30 cents more per pound than if it was one animal to equal that weight.
However I have a small herd. I realize in larger, range herds they are more often than not, pains.
I never found twins did that well when I did sucklers. I found you would often get an ok one and a dopey smaller one.
Its a pain in dairy, tend to ruin the cow for at least that lactation. I'm trying to get smaller calves, and even a mildly difficult calving really knocks them back. I suppose its nice to see the relationships but even as heifers its an arse as they tend to smaller.
I'm thinking of getting a Stabiliser bull as apparently they are bred for lower birthwieghts. Currently use an Angus, but I have a Belted Galloway for the heifers I might use over the cows next year.
Took some photos yesterday of how the grass is looking out back. Most is nice and thick if not particularly tall.
You can really see the different types of grasses and preferred areas to graze though.
And some of it is almost ridiculously tall.
None of these areas have been touched since the beginning of July. The differences in regrowth are mainly just because of grass type and the cows grazing preferences.
Spoke to a guy who’s north of me and does lots of rotational grazing and regen practices. He confirmed my suspicion that running the cattle over when the grass goes fully dormant would be better than running them over just now. However it would be best to run them over to get a good trample and soil contact with the residue. Especially that knee high stuff. So guess that will be the plan in another month or so.
And just some stuff from this morning after the snow
You can really see the different types of grasses and preferred areas to graze though.
And some of it is almost ridiculously tall.
None of these areas have been touched since the beginning of July. The differences in regrowth are mainly just because of grass type and the cows grazing preferences.
Spoke to a guy who’s north of me and does lots of rotational grazing and regen practices. He confirmed my suspicion that running the cattle over when the grass goes fully dormant would be better than running them over just now. However it would be best to run them over to get a good trample and soil contact with the residue. Especially that knee high stuff. So guess that will be the plan in another month or so.
And just some stuff from this morning after the snow
- Location
- Glen Clova, Angus, DD8 4RD
We've had quite a few twins over the years. We had 5 sets one year from 120 calvings and dad had 3 sets last year from 38 calvings.
Generally we're happy to have twins. They often don't do quite as well as singles but the end result is way more income from them as stores.
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Has got a bit cool here too but I think @Blaithin wins this round.
Bit of rain but the wind was unpleasant, we shot over the hill and picked up another 5 calves from our friends over there.
3 big friesian, and an ayrshire-hereford bull
and a nice lim-ayrshire heifer calf.
Just got them in the pen til they get used to us then they can go with the others, and we'll run another feeder.
What's the grass in your knee-deep picture? Any reason your cattle prefer to leave it?
Bit of rain but the wind was unpleasant, we shot over the hill and picked up another 5 calves from our friends over there.
3 big friesian, and an ayrshire-hereford bull
and a nice lim-ayrshire heifer calf.
What's the grass in your knee-deep picture? Any reason your cattle prefer to leave it?
ShooTa
Member
- Location
- Denbighshire - In the vale of Clwyd!
Quick Q to fellow sheep folk - have you heard of sheep being effected pre-during-post tupping by eating clover?
just recieve an AHDB leaflet which mentions clover infertility....
never come across it before.
Managing clover for better returns p12.
i have found a link -http://www.cluthavets.co.nz/animal-health/207-sheep-red-clover-a-ewe-infertility.html
talking about it - but with the explosion of clver weve had since starting the mobgrazing im now wondering how much a big deal this might be for planning...
either way am avoiding our field with high clover till post tup just to be sure.
just recieve an AHDB leaflet which mentions clover infertility....
never come across it before.
Managing clover for better returns p12.
i have found a link -http://www.cluthavets.co.nz/animal-health/207-sheep-red-clover-a-ewe-infertility.html
talking about it - but with the explosion of clver weve had since starting the mobgrazing im now wondering how much a big deal this might be for planning...
either way am avoiding our field with high clover till post tup just to be sure.
Yes Red clover can cause infertility while ewes are eating it. White clover is fine.
If it sets in I don't think anyone's going to win cool rounds with me for a while
@Crofter64 will be the only one in the same league.That grass hasn't seeded in a while to confirm but I'm pretty sure it's just Timothy. All the Timothy spots have come back really well, it's the Brome that's taking a bit more. Although from memory there was a year where the front yard was almost exclusively, extremely tall Timothy and it looked like straight Brome this year so maybe my memory is crap
I'll have to go check some of the areas I watered once the snow melts. Brome is usually fairly easy to tell even if others aren't so I should be able to say if it is or isn't that.Why is it knee deep and left? I'm going to assume there's something in the soil right there that makes that spot grow faster. Since it gets bigger the cattle leave it alone and the chain reaction starts. It gets even bigger, the smaller, yummy spots get and stay smaller. They do graze the top off of it but underneath it's all stalk so even a couple bites they're still leaving a large portion of the plant. Which is what I'd like, if only the rest of the grass would look like that! Of course it has to be at the back of the yard so to get them to it I usually have to put them over some sized area of smaller shoots so something is getting over grazed for me to get them to graze that as hard as I like. I've been playing with fencing to try and minimize the over grazing while getting them back there.
Because it's an old acreage there are little stories buried around it. The two dirt piles are actually there because the landlord dug holes, buried buildings (even an old mobile home), burnt them, and filled the holes in. Which explains why random things like window blinds pop out of the ground every now and then
This was in the last 10-15 years. The knee high Timothy is straight back from the thistle clump at the left side of the first dirt hill but really all between those two hills is very thick and tall for the most part. Hence my assumption there's something in that soil helping feed it, even if it is just ash from who knows what. I also don't know the layout of the yard before they tore down so many of the old buildings, a lot of the areas, like on the right of this photo, that get poorer growth and have less ground cover, could easily have been a building or a high traffic area that is very compacted.
- Location
- Glen Clova, Angus, DD8 4RD
You have my sympathy, my last house has old car parts buried all over the placeIf it sets in I don't think anyone's going to win cool rounds with me for a while
That grass hasn't seeded in a while to confirm but I'm pretty sure it's just Timothy. All the Timothy spots have come back really well, it's the Brome that's taking a bit more. Although from memory there was a year where the front yard was almost exclusively, extremely tall Timothy and it looked like straight Brome this year so maybe my memory is crap
Why is it knee deep and left? I'm going to assume there's something in the soil right there that makes that spot grow faster. Since it gets bigger the cattle leave it alone and the chain reaction starts. It gets even bigger, the smaller, yummy spots get and stay smaller. They do graze the top off of it but underneath it's all stalk so even a couple bites they're still leaving a large portion of the plant. Which is what I'd like, if only the rest of the grass would look like that! Of course it has to be at the back of the yard so to get them to it I usually have to put them over some sized area of smaller shoots so something is getting over grazed for me to get them to graze that as hard as I like. I've been playing with fencing to try and minimize the over grazing while getting them back there.
Because it's an old acreage there are little stories buried around it. The two dirt piles are actually there because the landlord dug holes, buried buildings (even an old mobile home), burnt them, and filled the holes in. Which explains why random things like window blinds pop out of the ground every now and then
Previous owners were rallying addicts and were often cannibalizing old classic cars to keep others running. The low value bits (rusty body panels, broken leaf springs, faulty instruments etc) got buried.
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Depends a LOT on the red clover varieties.
The ones down here are bred for low phytoestrogen levels but I doubt thats a prime consideration for "cutting ley" cultivars - kiwis don't have "cutting leys".
So that probably makes a difference, my mate has a RC paddock specifically for lamb finishing/ewe flushing and gets on alright.
Global ovine
Member
- Location
- Central Otago NZ
I have written extensive explanations on TFF in the past re. Red Clover's oestrogenic effect affecting ewe fertility.
Here's a summary:
- Some legumes contain oestrogens, all have different effects.
- Lucerne (alphalpha) when infected with Black Spot fungus causes a temporary oestrogenic effect resulting in lower ovulation rates and increased bareness. No effect if free of Black Spot.
- Red Clover and Subterranean Clover contain Formenonatin (a non oestrogen) this gets converted to Equol (a very potent oestrogen) in the rumen that causes emasculisation of the female reproductive tract and prevents sperm transport through the cervix. This is accumulative to the point of total inability to get pregnant and/or give birth if fed high diets for long periods of high formenonatin cultivars.
- Low form. varieties exist and should be sought for sheep once they are post pubety.
- RC and SC are excellent finishing feeds.
- Equol does not effect ram fertility or cattle.
- There are no oestrogenic effects with White Clover.
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
I love the taste of those red clover flowers just as they're emerging.
And plantain heads.. but have learnt to leave the chicory for my vegetarians!
Birth control is much easier for a male, just twist your ankle and it makes you limp
And plantain heads.. but have learnt to leave the chicory for my vegetarians!
Birth control is much easier for a male, just twist your ankle and it makes you limp
Global ovine
Member
- Location
- Central Otago NZ
So if only I had a rumen I could eat tonnes if red clover and save money on birth control.
The sh!t we put up with as monogastrics!
Absolutely brilliant! I will get some mileage using that quote.