Does Direct Drilling actually save money

Clive said:

you're looking at it wrongly though - like most your (brainwashed by suppliers !) subconscious focus is on gross output and one years copping at a a time and not thinking about rotational margins and higher profits that can be achieved through a massively reduced fixed costs structure and lower input / lower risk approach

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that could almost be a quote from an Australian mindset
we always have to focus on the long term, not just one cropping season . . .

Farmer Roy said:

err, as far as I am concerned, zero till has many more advantages than just a simple "is it cheaper" question, as in the OP

it has nothing to do with buying a new planter or the countless "which drill" questions after every pic of a zero till crop . . .( NO ONE asks those sort of questions over here. We are spoilt for choice & have a plethora of manufactures, machines & aftermarket parts available, to buy or build any type of planter you may want. They all do a good job & yield differences are insignificant most of the time. The big differences are in durability, stubble handling - VERY important to us, ability to work in varying soil types & moisture levels, etc ). But many many thousands of hectares of zero till crops have been planted with home made or farmer modified machines . . .

it is a whole systems approach, almost "holistic" some might venture

the benefits are many & cumulative, over many years, but I realise they may be more obvious in my harsh, volatile & brittle environment, than in your soft mild one.

here - it is a NO BRAINER. Why wouldn't you zero till
I don't for one moment think it is the "ultimate" farming system, but I am convinced it is the vital stepping stone to much more exciting regenerative & biologically sympathetic systems ahead
Eliminating tillage is vital . . .

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Same story down here - why would you pour money into something without a "guaranteed" return - something I always ponder when you hear bold claims about returns in an ideal world - we do not live in an ideal world.
It's getting less ideal year by year in some places, fair play to anyone keen to pawn their water cycle for the 'promise' of a bit more crop!
Rainfall is irrelevant, it's how you hold onto it that pays the bills

err, on the subject of yields . . .

the best yielding & most consistent crops from year to year ( in a "dryland" situation, no irrigation. I do question how much longer extensive irrigation systems will remain viable, but that's another discussion ) are always zero till here

as I said before - why WOULDNT you zero till ?
it is pretty much the default or "conventional" way of dryland arable farming here

Kiwi Pete said:

Same story down here - why would you pour money into something without a "guaranteed" return - something I always ponder when you hear bold claims about returns in an ideal world - we do not live in an ideal world.
It's getting less ideal year by year in some places, fair play to anyone keen to pawn their water cycle for the 'promise' of a bit more crop!
Rainfall is irrelevant, it's how you hold onto it that pays the bills

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err, free corporate branded caps & jackets ?
visits from friendly sales reps ?
being made to feel important or "big" ?

Farmer Roy said:

err, free corporate branded caps & jackets ?
visits from friendly sales reps ?
being made to feel important or "big" ?

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They tend to avoid me, upon recognition... the only visitors we get are more focussed on seeing how to grow stuff, than kill stuff

Clive said:

don't focus on how they were placed in the ground, its just a detail. Don't think of zerotill as an establishment method and start thinking of it as more the foundation / basic principle of a different farming system

PS - I don't like the term 'direct drill' much as its a very broad church and only describes an establishment method - Your mindset and clear desire for change should be considering and looking at moving your farm to a "conservation agriculture" system and not as narrow as just how will you drill the cash crops

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Yes!!
It is at best a whole-sale movement away from death and destruction of soil habitat, to copying the things in the natural world that life has evolved from.
Cultivation is "a system" whereas moving away from tillage is also a move away from systems, to a degree; and towards a more symbiotic approach, with a focus on being minimalist and conserving what you have got.
That isn't a system, it is adaptive

I personally think that is where no-till in the UK has met resistance and difficulty - it's just seen as an alternative to the plough, but the same "prejudices" carry over.

A lot of "direct drillers" still seem to be enjoying the worst of both paradigms, ie a subsoiler to mollock everything about a little, plus a straw rake to f**k with the surface to "incorporate" any residue and limit capillary action - it's still about doing, killing, and controlling. Bare soil, or at least nothing alive.

Not about conservation, so much.

Hence the yield drop focus, after two bites at increasing risk and/or reducing margin per hectare.

Fred said:

I think my problem is trying to be half pregnant , I like the idea but cant give up the shiny tackle (for various reasons) and the way to make direct drilling pay is to go down the holistic (forgive me) and divest all unwanted cost so you are left with the bare minimum and a low cost structure.

Big sums required and other thinking .

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It takes a whole farm plan to adopt DD. Yes, my spring crops haven't done well the last couple of years thanks to slightly later sowing waiting for the land to dry out and followed by a long dry spell. The loss of margin on the lower yield outweighed the savings of overheads. There's a big BUT here. A more "normal" spring rainfall pattern would still see most of the drilling done in March and enough rainfall to make them grow well. We seem to be in a run of a set of weather patterns at the moment where March and harvest are wet but May/June/July are dry. Not many conventional tillage farmers had sparking spring crops this year either. My weed burden is falling and every year the soil is in better condition with more worms and better structure. At least if I wanted to move to more winter crops I could do so with a clean start. Cover crops are funded by Countryside Stewardship £114/ha which more than covers the costs.

Yes, there are some big sums to do. As I said earlier, I had a mass sale of various bits of steel and oil plus didn't replace a member of staff who left, so some meaningful savings. Just DDing a few crops with an expensive drill that sits in a shed depreciating while you're still burning fuel with tillage and full existing labour only adds to your costs and leaves you with the easy escape route of a cultivator.

If you still like horsepower, consider strip tillage as a stepping stone into full no till. Even diehards like @Clive used it for a while.

As above, you need to change your mindset. Join BASE UK - their 2 day conference and AGM is in early February - it's inspirational and you meet lots of farmers who started out like you, full of doubt but who have made it work through learning & persistence. There's a few no tillers in your part of the world - go and see them. They all made mistakes along the way that cost them but they quickly learned from them and stuck with it. I find peer to peer learning more useful than listening to some person standing at the front of a PowerPoint presentation selling you something.

Fred said:

Ok lets take this further , I can make profit from wheat and OSR ,spring barley, spring oats & Linseed break even , beans lose money , are you making money from spring sown crops , I assume you are using overwintered covers

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I find beans can be ok.

Costs? £20/acre seed, £20 acre drilling, £20 acre Nirvana, £20 acre fungicide max. The combines there not doing anything anyway (yes I know its a cost but also look at things in the round) and it leaves a beyond wonderful soil structure so beans one in 5 or 6 is not too bad. Beans help the whole system but I agree they are not as good as first wheat or OSR but I can't grow first wheat all the time!

Drying costs can be pricey.

Fred said:

I think my problem is trying to be half pregnant , I like the idea but cant give up the shiny tackle (for various reasons) and the way to make direct drilling pay is to go down the holistic (forgive me) and divest all unwanted cost so you are left with the bare minimum and a low cost structure.

Big sums required and other thinking .

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You can do what you want though. You can buy a no till drill and use a little cultivation or you can buy some very shallow tillage kit like a short disc for not much money and use that in the more difficult bits.

Don't bother spunking everything on a Cross Slot because that overcommits you. Just use something cheaper or a contractor. Get Matt Redman drill 100 acres of wheat after rape for you.

But nothing works unless you've got this on and not enough people remember this important item. This is Clive before bed:

I had wondered how y'all spend so much time skiing and never manage a sunburnt neck.


Good thinking @Clive

@SilliamWhale has it spot on.

Just because you have a direct drill doesn’t mean you have to direct drill something.

It’s still a drill with coulters, it’s not like the seed is not allowed to grow because it’s gone into cultivated soil.

I think that’s where a lot of people go wrong when they change systems.

You do what you have to do on an individual field basis on what your soil, weeds and crop are telling you but will find eventually your soils will fall into place for you.