What folks thoughts on cattle drinking mains water treated with chlorine? Can’t do the gut bacteria a lot of good can it? I know my own dogs would prefer to drink out of a dirty puddle than a dish of tap water at home, and our mains isn’t too bad, makes me very suspicious.
"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..
- Thread starter Kiwi Pete
- Start date
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Happy days...
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
I guess it's no more harmful than eating preservatives and chemicals on our food, that we have no way to process - or feeding our stock heaps of sugary feed to burn out their livers and kidneys..
My belief (corny as it may sound) is that the further we move away from "God's model" the worse our outcomes will be.
Let your dog show you the way, nature isn't sterile - and creatures/landscapes lacking diversity will always be unwell
This is my main plan for any future sites as long as there's a hill. Easier to find water here than hills most of the time
In the mountains we had one camp with a great gravity set up from a stream. Big funnel with a screen in front, caught a bunch of water and whenever you wanted it, just turn it on and it was there. Worked a treat. But you need the right geography.
In Australia we had a couple large poly tanks up on the hill that the pump would fill up (can't actually remember from where, if there was a well there or if it pumped out of the creek). The poly tanks then fed all the cabins and washrooms via gravity feed. Was wonderful when we had no power for over a week after Yasi, still had water.
I've always figured on a similar set up for livestock. Have a permanent fence every so far running downhill from the tank and run PVC along it. Every so often have a valve and garden hose attachment. That way you can put the hose onto the PVC wherever you want it and it's easy to find a float that hooks up to a garden hose. No problem having a portable tank anywhere along that permanent fence then, or even a bit away from it depending how long your garden hose is.
As long as there's a hill somewhere it'd work. Even on top of a building would probably get the job done for a fair distance. Shouldn't need a constant grade on the PVC as long as the tanks up higher than the pipe and troughs.
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
You can even get quite a good water head from a large diameter pipe for a start, using it as a "tank" if you don't need heaps of storage.This is my main plan for any future sites as long as there's a hill. Easier to find water here than hills most of the time
In the mountains we had one camp with a great gravity set up from a stream. Big funnel with a screen in front, caught a bunch of water and whenever you wanted it, just turn it on and it was there. Worked a treat. But you need the right geography.
In Australia we had a couple large poly tanks up on the hill that the pump would fill up (can't actually remember from where, if there was a well there or if it pumped out of the creek). The poly tanks then fed all the cabins and washrooms via gravity feed. Was wonderful when we had no power for over a week after Yasi, still had water.
I've always figured on a similar set up for livestock. Have a permanent fence every so far running downhill from the tank and run PVC along it. Every so often have a valve and garden hose attachment. That way you can put the hose onto the PVC wherever you want it and it's easy to find a float that hooks up to a garden hose. No problem having a portable tank anywhere along that permanent fence then, or even a bit away from it depending how long your garden hose is.
As long as there's a hill somewhere it'd work. Even on top of a building would probably get the job done for a fair distance. Shouldn't need a constant grade on the PVC as long as the tanks up higher than the pipe and troughs.
What I want to do here is use our same free water connection off the town reservoir, run that through a dosatron into a small header tank and then run either 2x40mm or one 63mm pipe, just for backup on hot days and to put minerals in the water as required.
Based on what others are doing with techno I need water for up to 5 cattle/ha but due to the agreement with the council I (probably) can't run a 40mm pipe straight from their tanks!
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
A real interesting morning with Iain Mitchell-Innes on the subject of holistic management, grazing, and animal health.
Unfortunately I couldn't spend the whole day there as I had a work commitment later in the day, but the jist of the talk was on grazing right to let stock maintain their energy/protein balance for healthy cattle - the main lesson being stocking density is pretty crucial - too low and they eat too much of the sward, but at higher densities they trample most of it.
Also his idea of stockpile grazing, was to estimate your non-growing season and in most instances, make your "round" length half of your expectation.
So in effect, you take it down by half, then half again - as your stock use different microbes to digest the top half as opposed to the less digestible bottom half.. if you make them eat the lot in one grazing they are thus much less efficient.
So they transition midwinter while they are likely already mobilising fat.
I also brought up the replacement of inputs with inputs, ie substituting spending on fertiliser with spending money putting in fancy species as opposed to managing what is native/naturalised on your landscape.
I think his response will please @Henarar
"you may as well take your money to town"
was a fairly popular comment on the day.
There was also an interesting point made about excess nitrogen and how the amines are knocked off the sugar and result in the ammonia accumulating in the renal system which explains the shorter lifespan and poorer health of many "pushed" cattle.
Unfortunately I couldn't spend the whole day there as I had a work commitment later in the day, but the jist of the talk was on grazing right to let stock maintain their energy/protein balance for healthy cattle - the main lesson being stocking density is pretty crucial - too low and they eat too much of the sward, but at higher densities they trample most of it.
Also his idea of stockpile grazing, was to estimate your non-growing season and in most instances, make your "round" length half of your expectation.
So in effect, you take it down by half, then half again - as your stock use different microbes to digest the top half as opposed to the less digestible bottom half.. if you make them eat the lot in one grazing they are thus much less efficient.
So they transition midwinter while they are likely already mobilising fat.
I also brought up the replacement of inputs with inputs, ie substituting spending on fertiliser with spending money putting in fancy species as opposed to managing what is native/naturalised on your landscape.
I think his response will please @Henarar
"you may as well take your money to town"
was a fairly popular comment on the day.
There was also an interesting point made about excess nitrogen and how the amines are knocked off the sugar and result in the ammonia accumulating in the renal system which explains the shorter lifespan and poorer health of many "pushed" cattle.
texas pete
Member
- Location
- East Mids
Sound like a really interesting visit.
Is he advocating never trying/needing to improve an already established pasture? Or does he just not sell seed...
Great beard in that first pick....I assumed everyone would have one...and open toed sandals...
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
I guess the answer to your first question would depend how "improved" the soil is, something I am not really familiar with but the farm we visited had been basically either growing serial cereals or a brief interlude into grass and setstocked with sheep, it was like a roadway and wouldn't even support a decent crop of thistles hence the evident yellow flowers of doom.Sound like a really interesting visit.
Is he advocating never trying/needing to improve an already established pasture? Or does he just not sell seed...
Great beard in that first pick....I assumed everyone would have one...and open toed sandals...
In that situation he suggested you could buy yourself a season by trying diverse annual mixes but said quietly to me that my comment about having a 30 species mix lurking in my soil was obviously the more profitable way, he just didn't want to sound discouraging
..he largely condemned our ryegrass habit as a poor man's attempt at monoculture and has the costs to prove it, as it simply doesn't really do well with most holistic contexts unless they include tractors and mowers - as I suggested once before it bolts at the slightest stress whereas most grasses are much more resilient to stress early in the growing season and don't have such detrimental effects to the other species in the sward at that time, (it actively suppresses other species while in reproductive mode) but the real stability is in diversity (think we may have mentioned that on here too
)
- Location
- Derbyshire
In the first picture, is the yellow flower buttercup or some kind of dandelion?
I can cope with dandelions, however, buttercups don't get eaten and just spread and smother everything out.
I can cope with dandelions, however, buttercups don't get eaten and just spread and smother everything out.
texas pete
Member
- Location
- East Mids
I guess the answer to your first question would depend how "improved" the soil is, something I am not really familiar with but the farm we visited had been basically either growing serial cereals or a brief interlude into grass and setstocked with sheep, it was like a roadway and wouldn't even support a decent crop of thistles hence the evident yellow flowers of doom.
In that situation he suggested you could buy yourself a season by trying diverse annual mixes but said quietly to me that my comment about having a 30 species mix lurking in my soil was obviously the more profitable way, he just didn't want to sound discouraging
..he largely condemned our ryegrass habit as a poor man's attempt at monoculture and has the costs to prove it, as it simply doesn't really do well with most holistic contexts unless they include tractors and mowers - as I suggested once before it bolts at the slightest stress whereas most grasses are much more resilient to stress early in the growing season and don't have such detrimental effects to the other species in the sward at that time, (it actively suppresses other species while in reproductive mode) but the real stability is in diversity (think we may have mentioned that on here too
Makes sense....patience and perseverance, rather than pennies then.
I direct drilled some ryegrass last spring, after a turnip crop...it went in perfectly, came up quick, boy did it struggle in the ensuing "drought"...looks a picture now though
. But in reality it produced very little relative to the spend. My only consolation is how much worse it would have been if I'd established it "properly".
- Location
- Quebec, Canada
fill a tank and let the water off gas before you water stock?Collect rainwater? All more work but maybe worththe trouble
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Those mini-dandelions, can never remember the name of them.. very common around here where soils are compacted and mowers are used a lot
- Location
- Quebec, Canada
Hawkweed? ( hieracium)
Percy Veer
Member
Kiwi Pete, Regarding your 0.1 hectare grazing blocks -
Stock numbers won't remain the same and young stock will eat more and more even if numbers do stay the same
Grass growth throughout the seasons changes
Every year's grass growth is different
Etc.
Do you expect to have to constantly keep an eye on them, and sometimes move them, say, twice a day, other times only perhaps every 2 or 3 days?
Stock numbers won't remain the same and young stock will eat more and more even if numbers do stay the same
Grass growth throughout the seasons changes
Every year's grass growth is different
Etc.
Do you expect to have to constantly keep an eye on them, and sometimes move them, say, twice a day, other times only perhaps every 2 or 3 days?
- Location
- Glen Clova, Angus, DD8 4RD
@Kiwi Pete , @Agrispeed , @Treg and many others know way more than me about Holistic Grazing but yes, the principle is that you base your management on high stock density and short grazing duration. This is to encourage the flow of carbon back into the soil from trampled vegetation and to prevent the stock staying in one place long enough to nip off any early regrowth from the vegetation. How long you leave them on any particular cell is determined by the forage state and growth rate, not by your clock or calendar, so it will vary through the growing and dormant season. It takes much more observation but MUCH less time and inputs if done well.
- Location
- NSW, Newstralya
grazing charts
grazing charts
grazing charts
HOLISTIC management
holistic MANAGEMENT
- Location
- NSW, Newstralya
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You are here: Home > Grazing Management > Fencing > Current Article
Grazing Management Using Cow Pie GIS
By Michael Harman / February 18, 2019 / No Comments
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As grazers, much of the innovation and automation that has swept across production agriculture has left you behind. Sure the technology has crept into hay making equipment, and there are precision soil sampling rigs and spreader trucks that have real utility in a grazing environment, but is there an opportunity to learn more? I think there is.
As farmers and ranchers understanding the patterns your livestock travel can be a useful tool when managing your forage resources. You see if only there was a way to mark locations of your cattle or horses or sheep or goats or lama or alpaca or whatever across your pasture and estimate the time they spend in different locations you could learn a lot. Don’t fret… There is.
Figure Out Where Your Animals Spend Their Time
All ranchers know the first step to being a better rancher is getting to know your land, walking you ground and know what it is that you’re farming. As you walk around pastures and hay meadows take note of where the cow pies lie. Cow pies are like those points we drop on a track line with a GPS unit, and in the same way we spatially analyze that data you too can learn a lot from the spatial pattern of your cow pies. Now you don’t necessarily need to run a Getis Org Gi*analysis to determine if the poo is spatially autocorrelated, or look of clusters or hot spots, but your eyes can see patterns as well as just about any software (actually we have a tendency to overestimate the presence of patterns).
Researchers have used cow-pie mapping to determine how much barn cleaning a farmer will have to do for dairy cows. What they learned is the more time a cow spends in a place, the more likely it is to poop or pee there. You can use this to your advantage! (Click to read this past On Pasture article.)
Managing Where Manure Is Left
So all of this is well and fine, but how can it make you more money? Animal redistribution of nutrients across a landscape is the first and sometimes the only application fertilizers some ground see for years at a time. This has several impacts on your farm. Over time you get hot spots where nutrients are higher if cattle spend disproportionate amounts of time in one place over another. The obvious challenges are watering troughs, fly control equipment, shade trees, mineral feeders, anything they can scratch or rub against, and bottle necks (gates). First walk your ground. Do you see increases in the frequency you encounter the dropped points (Cow Pies)? Is the manure concentrations you observe around fixed features a little higher or a lot higher? If you see a pattern, you have an opportunity to make an improvement. Here is a list of 5 ways to improve the spatial distribution of you animal based fertilizer application (spreading the poop sans tractor).
1. Utilize rotational grazing.
Force livestock to move over ground and move on.
Stay tuned for upcoming articles on watering options for rotational grazing.
2. Think strategically when installing water.
Fixed forever installations are nice, but they attract attention and hot spots ensue. If you must build one take care to locate it so the accumulation of nutrients will have minimal environmental impacts. When possible develop mobile watering stations that you can relocate as you move through your rotational grazing paddocks.
3. Let your salt block and round bale feeders guide them.
Don’t be that guy with one salt feeder that has sat in one spot for the last 43 years, or the rancher with an 18 inch tall round bale feeder (because the rest of it has sank in the mud since 1996) move them around and position them opposite of water to make livestock move across the ground. It also helps if you place these things in parts of the pasture that need nutrients and maybe leave them there a little longer.
4. If you have a drone, use it.
Here is a chance to write off a toy for the kids (don’t quote me on that to the IRS). Those fancy drones little jimmy or Suzy wanted for Christmas with the camera, is a great thing to take pictures from above. If you have a good rotational grazing set up and you want to do actual spatial analysis, all you need is real time phots where you can see the Pies from the sky. After that any person with decent GIS skills (contact your local Extension office for assistance) should be able to convert the photos to maps and scientifically look for poo clusters.
Looking for an NRCS Office near you? Click here to go to an interactive map that will help you find it.
5. Work with your local NRCS, or State Ag agencies to make maps of every paddock you rotate into and soil sample them independently.
There is an old saying “knowing is half the battle”. I don’t remember who said it, but it’s very true. Manage your nutrients to maximize your per acre productivity. More yield in forage equals more pounds of meat or milk or fiber.
Sure some of you have very large farms and some of these ideas will not translate perfectly to your situation. However, that does not mean you should not consider placement of gates, mineral feeders, round bale feeders, pick and choose what trees to fall, and what to leave standing so you can decide where they get shade water and shelter.
Manage your farm or it will manage you.
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
The plan at this stage is to maybe graze a few cattle outside over winter and fill the tunnel, hopefully 120 or so in there so we can let the cover run a little in the spring and then hit the ground at about 4 per hectare. Jump straight into a 59 day recovery (1 move per day, 60 cells per mob) and then to 30 as the growth picks up (2 moves per day) and just keep topping the pasture. Maybe even 3 cells, but likely not.
If we prove understocked then it's likely we can graze a few carryovers or something, for some cashflow, and likewise we can soon be rid of some if it goes the other way. We'll likely have 7 mobs at 6ha/mob.
- Location
- NSW, Newstralya
BEAR Biologics
48 mins ·
Random Fact
Q - How much Nitrogen do you get in the rain from a thunder storm?
A- 1kg N for every 1mm rain ( as Nitrates)Random Fact
48 mins ·
Random Fact
Q - How much Nitrogen do you get in the rain from a thunder storm?
A- 1kg N for every 1mm rain ( as Nitrates)Random Fact
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Well, my little trick worked
... the lady boss says I can call in the planners and get a quote, plan in action to get single-wire lanes and full water.
Jury is still out as far as details go, eg how many cells, how many lanes, or even whether to opt for several portables or micro's - but I will keep you updated anyway.
7 mobs would be ideal so it's still feasible to lug 7 troughs, I'd like to see what we can do for $20k but would stretch a little if I could avoid that, at 5 minutes per mob per day (remember, when you're working you're missing out on observation time)
I would rather just lift the wire and look at cattle move forward TBH
say 42 ha, 6ha per mob, 59 day recovery period = 420 x .1ha
42 ha, 7ha per mob, 69 days, 6 mobs
Split the cells in half and it jumps to 119 days or 139 days, double shift and you get 29 days or 34
or fudge it all up and go for .08ha and go 490 cells ?
It's really difficult to know without getting the experts to assess, I am prejudiced about what exists at present and they won't be, and they will do the water system plan better as well.
... the lady boss says I can call in the planners and get a quote, plan in action to get single-wire lanes and full water.
Jury is still out as far as details go, eg how many cells, how many lanes, or even whether to opt for several portables or micro's - but I will keep you updated anyway.
7 mobs would be ideal so it's still feasible to lug 7 troughs, I'd like to see what we can do for $20k but would stretch a little if I could avoid that, at 5 minutes per mob per day (remember, when you're working you're missing out on observation time)
I would rather just lift the wire and look at cattle move forward TBH
say 42 ha, 6ha per mob, 59 day recovery period = 420 x .1ha
42 ha, 7ha per mob, 69 days, 6 mobs
Split the cells in half and it jumps to 119 days or 139 days, double shift and you get 29 days or 34
or fudge it all up and go for .08ha and go 490 cells ?
It's really difficult to know without getting the experts to assess, I am prejudiced about what exists at present and they won't be, and they will do the water system plan better as well.