"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

Macsky

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Highland
I have an issue. Most if not all of what I’m reading on the wonders of holistic planned grazing refers to far drier climates than here. Any ideas how you would adapt the principles to land that can be waterlogged for weeks at a time, and I’m not just talking about low lying flat bits, but everywhere? We’ve hardly had 2 dry days in three weeks here, with none on the forecast either, and this is pretty standard.

This is where the high stocking density’s surely becomes a problem, as poaching will surely ensue. And since the most benefits seem to come from the higher stocking rates, what do you do in the winter months?

Some ground is constantly wet, and acidic for it, but land drainage would sort this, but it’s costly, and does it really fit with ‘holistic’?
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
I have an issue. Most if not all of what I’m reading on the wonders of holistic planned grazing refers to far drier climates than here. Any ideas how you would adapt the principles to land that can be waterlogged for weeks at a time, and I’m not just talking about low lying flat bits, but everywhere? We’ve hardly had 2 dry days in three weeks here, with none on the forecast either, and this is pretty standard.

This is where the high stocking density’s surely becomes a problem, as poaching will surely ensue. And since the most benefits seem to come from the higher stocking rates, what do you do in the winter months?

Some ground is constantly wet, and acidic for it, but land drainage would sort this, but it’s costly, and does it really fit with ‘holistic’?
That's a really valid point and I really think we should have tackled it earlier, but I don't mind if we weeded a few out

The main thing of course, whether overgrazing or overwet soils =TIME

if you have stock that can roam all over the show (most people) then you get mud, you can create poaching (that's pugging, for anyone outside the UK) and all sorts of issues.
Likewise if you only up the stocking density when food is running short which is exactly when I see most people starting to ration feed, and get the reels out.
That's the mistake.

They've topped or silaged or W.H.Y. and taken all that soil armour away, or made it rot away by the end of summer - this isn't when it would naturally be rotting in, which is during the wet months - so they have nothing on the surface, as @Crofter64 said the fine folks with the new seeds actually tell us to get rid of "thatch"...

But there's now two compounding issues.
No soil protection, and hungry overgrazing animals.
Mine eat for an hour and then lie down, stuffed and satiated, then maybe 3 hours later the odd one will stand up for a drink or a pick around = TIME
if you time your moves well then you don't have problems.

I tried the "3 days in each paddock" thing that most people advocate (as they are too busy in their machinery to graze effectively) as it is a f**king mudbath, especially down here in the clay and cool.
So my journey has seen us tighten them up, and move them more, and it'll be interesting to demonstrate how it works in the wet, if it ever rains!

But that's my views on it, it's still a better water cycle no matter how much you get.

I'm pleased you brought it up, but waited, because everyone on TFF has the coldest wettest farm in the UK they've just given you a good headstart... there is no 'economy' in having your stock all spread out to buggery, other than for finding shelter, it's not numbers or kgDM so much as TIME

If you don't cultivate and silage all the time, but graze all the time, then the land handles grazing better, much better. It's all that carbon I'm laying down now, which will be my "bedding" for winter, by the time the grass is growing in the spring it should mostly be gone.

Most people's "bedding material" or litter is baled up and being fed to their stock when they should be standing on it and eating decent grass
 
Last edited:

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
That's a really valid point and I really think we should have tackled it earlier, but I don't mind if we weeded a few out

The main thing of course, whether overgrazing or overwet soils =TIME

if you have stock that can roam all over the show (most people) then you get mud, you can create poaching (that's pugging, for anyone outside the UK) and all sorts of issues.
Likewise if you only up the stocking density when food is running short which is exactly when I see most people starting to ration feed, and get the reels out.
That's the mistake.

They've topped or silaged or W.H.Y. and taken all that soil armour away, or made it rot away by the end of summer - this isn't when it would naturally be rotting in, which is during the wet months - so they have nothing on the surface, as @Crofter64 said the fine folks with the new seeds actually tell us to get rid of "thatch"...

But there's now two compounding issues.
No soil protection, and hungry overgrazing animals.
Mine eat for an hour and then lie down, stuffed and satiated, then maybe 3 hours later the odd one will stand up for a drink or a pick around = TIME
if you time your moves well then you don't have problems.

I tried the "3 days in each paddock" thing that most people advocate (as they are too busy in their machinery to graze effectively) as it is a fudgeing mudbath, especially down here in the clay and cool.
So my journey has seen us tighten them up, and move them more, and it'll be interesting to demonstrate how it works in the wet, if it ever rains!

But that's my views on it, it's still a better water cycle no matter how much you get.

I'm pleased you brought it up, but waited, because everyone on TFF has the coldest wettest farm in the UK they've just given you a good headstart... there is no 'economy' in having your stock all spread out to buggery, other than for finding shelter, it's not numbers or kgDM so much as TIME

If you don't cultivate and silage all the time, but graze all the time, then the land handles grazing better, much better. It's all that carbon I'm laying down now, which will be my "bedding" for winter, by the time the grass is growing in the spring it should mostly be gone.

Most people's "bedding material" or litter is baled up and being fed to their stock when they should be standing on it and eating decent grass
Great reply. There are folk in the UK outwintering cattle with Holistic Planned Grazing without making a mess. The trick is probably to get your soils into the right condition first rather than jump to it in year 1.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Great reply. There are folk in the UK outwintering cattle with Holistic Planned Grazing without making a mess. The trick is probably to get your soils into the right condition first rather than jump to it in year 1.
There is very little point in waiting til "the horse hath bolted" before you start ""mob grazing"".
It's as effective as waiting for Brexit, and then looking at what costs your business its profit; or waiting til you have haemorrhoids before making a decent job of wiping your ass.
TIME
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
There is very little point in waiting til "the horse hath bolted" before you start ""mob grazing"".
It's as effective as waiting for Brexit, and then looking at what costs your business its profit; or waiting til you have haemorrhoids before making a decent job of wiping your ass.
TIME
I just meant start HPG now but keep them off in winter until the soil carbon and biology catch up a bit.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
I just meant start HPG now but keep them off in winter until the soil carbon and biology catch up a bit.
This has merit, you can of course get some practice in with lighter stock and experiment.

But everyone needs to look at time, for what it is, and how the seasonal change within plants and rain fits with what they do - my mate on the West coast grazes all year around and has ten feet of rain in a dry year - he said the dry year made the winter wetter because the cows ate too much of their grass, and it was a struggle not to speed them up when he should have been slowing them down

"Nature's way of preventing everything happening at once"
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
20190321_073017.jpg

before
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after
 

onesiedale

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Derbyshire
I have an issue. Most if not all of what I’m reading on the wonders of holistic planned grazing refers to far drier climates than here. Any ideas how you would adapt the principles to land that can be waterlogged for weeks at a time, and I’m not just talking about low lying flat bits, but everywhere? We’ve hardly had 2 dry days in three weeks here, with none on the forecast either, and this is pretty standard.

This is where the high stocking density’s surely becomes a problem, as poaching will surely ensue. And since the most benefits seem to come from the higher stocking rates, what do you do in the winter months?

Some ground is constantly wet, and acidic for it, but land drainage would sort this, but it’s costly, and does it really fit with ‘holistic’?
We have a fair scoot of ground similar to what you describe. (Although, probably not your rainfall figures). KP's answer covered most of what I had deduced from what I have read; that is, tighten up the groups, and keep them moving. And build covers up. For us this will mainly be with youngstock/drystock rather than the milking herd.
I get the feeling it will be a summer of trial and error, but one thing I do know that I will aim to do more of is wintering youngstock out on deferred grass with bales set out ready for the winter.
This patch of ground will be the area ready for a spring 're-seed'
 

Poorbuthappy

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
I have an issue. Most if not all of what I’m reading on the wonders of holistic planned grazing refers to far drier climates than here. Any ideas how you would adapt the principles to land that can be waterlogged for weeks at a time, and I’m not just talking about low lying flat bits, but everywhere? We’ve hardly had 2 dry days in three weeks here, with none on the forecast either, and this is pretty standard.

This is where the high stocking density’s surely becomes a problem, as poaching will surely ensue. And since the most benefits seem to come from the higher stocking rates, what do you do in the winter months?

Some ground is constantly wet, and acidic for it, but land drainage would sort this, but it’s costly, and does it really fit with ‘holistic’?
It's a bit what I was getting at a few pages back when I questioned Pete on the impact thing - certainly before you get the soil improvement- you don't need as many kg/ hectare to get the desired effect in wetter conditions. Whether that means you move more frequently or have slightly lower density will depend on your goals I guess.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Yep, that's the one - structure

It can take some time to improve it, obviously if your soils are flogged and compacted then it takes a while to get the function happening.

It's actually far easier to achieve it, but also less necessary to have it, in wetter and more temperate climes, because the water is in the landscape you don't have to "manage to put it there" as nature provides.

I guess an analogy would be area payments' effect on profitability, we have to manage our "safety net" if it doesn't simply fall from the sky, build that resilience into our financial planning etc.

Was just talking to my bank manager as she rang to see how we were going, how the dry was going to affect us and I had to say the weather should play into our bank account nicely, as I am "an apex predator"

She laughed, she's been here for a look and she "gets it", in fact her partner is going to install a techno system once he learns a little more about the grazing
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
Yep, that's the one - structure

It can take some time to improve it, obviously if your soils are flogged and compacted then it takes a while to get the function happening.

It's actually far easier to achieve it, but also less necessary to have it, in wetter and more temperate climes, because the water is in the landscape you don't have to "manage to put it there" as nature provides.

I guess an analogy would be area payments' effect on profitability, we have to manage our "safety net" if it doesn't simply fall from the sky, build that resilience into our financial planning etc.

Was just talking to my bank manager as she rang to see how we were going, how the dry was going to affect us and I had to say the weather should play into our bank account nicely, as I am "an apex predator"

She laughed, she's been here for a look and she "gets it", in fact her partner is going to install a techno system once he learns a little more about the grazing
Sounds like a paid consultancy opportunity :whistle::sneaky:

Earn some money from the bankers for a change :D
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Sounds like a paid consultancy opportunity :whistle::sneaky:

Earn some money from the bankers for a change :D
I already do, in a roundabout way.

But I guess the main hurdle for most is the money aspect, it's hard without a major upset not to keep on keeping on at keeping on.
And sentiment, too, a bit of pride... it's hard to sell your biggest and best looking stock because you know in a few months you won't have grass to feed them all, but MUCH harder selling on a falling market as everyone else begins to run out of hope - but when the tail end make you a huge profit then it makes up for that.

Most people resist change for various reasons, as the saying goes: because of what they have to give up, rather than what they have to gain

Yes we need to maintain our genetic base or whatever but the landscape has to come first - it will be around a damn sight longer than us or our cattle
So you farm for the environment first, rather than the environment you wish you had - if you are looking at rainfall then it may be the wrong part of the animal - look at what you can do with what you get.

We are all water farmers, maximise your solar panel, maximise your stock numbers when you can, be ready to lose them at any time due to what you have in front of you
 

Karliboy

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
West Yorkshire
I think my main problem with grazing my better land that I cut and bale is the fact it is so steep (we get over aprox 1.1 meters of rain and a average temp of 9.3 so drying out is slow. )
and what happens isn’t really poaching it’s more the fact as the cattle walk around they slide the turf into lumps and create bare soil no mater how much thatch is under there feet from past experiences in some rented land.
In one small field I no longer harvest the banking is now terraced where the cattle walk across the banks creating there own paths.
I do try not to graze these when wet but sometimes we have no choice but when I do I always try to graze up hill.
I am really looking forwards to trying grazing harder and faster in mobs rather than just strip grazing but how the land will hold up is another matter . Splitting steepbanks up into squares of sorts may not work as the cattle will turn around and graze downhill slip and slide and make a mess. Grazing up hill is so much cleaner.
Another problem is I do need to allow cattle to flatter land to water and to rest as they don’t like sleeping on 50 degree banks.
Hmm all these issues.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
I think my main problem with grazing my better land that I cut and bale is the fact it is so steep (we get over aprox 1.1 meters of rain and a average temp of 9.3 so drying out is slow. )
and what happens isn’t really poaching it’s more the fact as the cattle walk around they slide the turf into lumps and create bare soil no mater how much thatch is under there feet from past experiences in some rented land.
In one small field I no longer harvest the banking is now terraced where the cattle walk across the banks creating there own paths.
I do try not to graze these when wet but sometimes we have no choice but when I do I always try to graze up hill.
I am really looking forwards to trying grazing harder and faster in mobs rather than just strip grazing but how the land will hold up is another matter . Splitting steepbanks up into squares of sorts may not work as the cattle will turn around and graze downhill slip and slide and make a mess. Grazing up hill is so much cleaner.
Another problem is I do need to allow cattle to flatter land to water and to rest as they don’t like sleeping on 50 degree banks.
Hmm all these issues.
What altitude is your farm?
Your climate sounds very similar to where I was dairying, but it was by the sea.

My guess is that with improved cover management the land will hold up far better which each and every year, just keep working on the water points!
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
View attachment 778992
just missed catching the neighbour setting up his fences the day of the photo (with his low loader) ... my lot in the foreground.. moving from right to left and not backfenced ... AS the front fence was actually underwater 2 days ago... in the pic mine were moving on 0.25ish 2x a day.. on 8-9 inch overwintered grass..
Did his cows break out? :ROFLMAO:
I see the standards but cows all over the shop.
 

Blaithin

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Alberta
If I had land that was regularly under water (hah!) and was grazed fairly short, I’d take one season to get as much of it as high and mature as I could before running stock on it. Then run them through and get a good trample on. Build up the litter really quick and punch it down a bit right off the bat. Should help with soul stability and infiltration.
 

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