When do they become pure bred?

milkloss

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
East Sussex
Bit of a school boy question here. I'm registering calves at the minute and am wondering at what point a calf becomes pure as opposed to a cross.

I have half and 3/4 bred simmental cows that have been to a sim bull so what are the calves? The computer continues to call them simx but I'm not sure.

Thanks.
 

Davy_g

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Co Down
When you satisfy the relevant society rules with grading up.
Grading up used to be a thing when importing continental females cost two fortunes.
Now you can import females for less than buying them at a society sale.
 
Not legally.

But I've always been told 5 crosses.

!st cross 50%
2nd cross 75%
3rd cross 87.5%
4 th cross 94%
5th cross 97%

Lots of "pure Texels" around here. But not registed. I think you struggle to see the difference at three crosses.

It must matter what you are grading up from too, in qualty terms.
 

Sandpit Farm

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Derbyshire
I think I just found the answer from @Sandpit Farm useful post a year or two back, just needed to tweak the search terms

https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/50-50-x-50-50.174490/#post-3884044

I think that post was referring to Stabilisers under the breed up scheme. I suspect different breeds will have different rules and I wouldn't be certain about where Sims sit on that.

I am pretty sure Sussex Cattle used Lims in a breed improvement program and that ran under the same rules as the Stabiliser pattern.

I would therefore argue that 'fifteen and a half sixteenths' is as near to pure as pure.
 

topground

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
North Somerset.
Reconstructing the Sheeted Somerset breed has thrown up some interesting challenges, particularly the interpretation of Regulation (EU)2016/1012 Animal breeding. Google it if you are really bored!
Predictably the Civil Service have not interpreted the regulations in their guidance in a way that anticipated that anyone would be likely to reconstruct a breed despite the regulations makng it clear that reconstruction is permitted.
Grading up when there is nothng to grade up from means the breeders will enter F1 animals that meet the breed standard in the herdbook .
DEFRA struggle with that one!
Anyone aware of any consultation process prior to the introduction of guidance on the regulations?
 

Cowgirl

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Ayrshire
That’s all very well but what happens when you have animals that look similar (ie are the same colour) but are completely different genetically from the breed’s living original population, so that you have two distinctly different DNA profiles for the same breed? This is the situation in the Hereford, and may well be the case in other breeds eg the Native and Modern Angus, and other breeds which have been changed by the addition of other breeds.
 
That’s all very well but what happens when you have animals that look similar (ie are the same colour) but are completely different genetically from the breed’s living original population, so that you have two distinctly different DNA profiles for the same breed? This is the situation in the Hereford, and may well be the case in other breeds eg the Native and Modern Angus, and other breeds which have been changed by the addition of other breeds.
What are the genetic differences in the Hereford?
 

Cowgirl

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Ayrshire
What are the genetic differences in the Hereford?
There are many DNA SNP differences - these were discovered during DEFRA funded research into identifying meat samples after the horse meat debacle in UK in 2011- 2012. This is published research and there is much more in the pipeline from some of the world’s most renowned geneticists. Although the science is interesting on its own, it has commercial relevance in that some of these SNPs are probably related to the important Hereford traits such as feed conversion, foraging ability, milk production etc and also the loss of the dominant white face gene, which though cosmetic does have commercial importance to many people.
I’m sure you will think I’m just being a nerd here but with the future of the cattle industry perhaps relying on genomic EBVs, these things are of vital importance. Note that this has nothing to do with parentage verification- a bull can still be a calf’s sire despite having a different breed DNA profile. And in case anyone thinks I am quibbling about animals of 97% purity here, I am not - I’m talking about 25% or less! It really does beg the question- what is a Hereford? A lot of people will say what does it matter? But there is a lot of talk about heterosis in the beef industry — Black Baldies being a prime example- and you’re not going to get a heterosis advantage from what is effectively a crossbred.
The Angus people are also interested in this btw.
 

JP1

Member
Livestock Farmer
Best definition I have heard is
" A breed is a group of animals that are similar genetically and phenotypically that have been designated and named as a breed by a breeder or group of breeders"
Not in Blighty. There's an army (more than the folks tending and feeding said cattle) with some curious interest in interpreting the rules and advising and controlling "something" . I'm with @topground all the way. And then you try finding somebody accountable or capable of making a decision
 

JP1

Member
Livestock Farmer
That is pretty much how all modern breeds started, a group of people got together, decided their animals that all looked the same were the same and poof there was a breed.
Yep. Many sensible and forward thinking did, often over 200 years ago. Not worth a candle without a paper trail in some's eyes
 
There are many DNA SNP differences - these were discovered during DEFRA funded research into identifying meat samples after the horse meat debacle in UK in 2011- 2012. This is published research and there is much more in the pipeline from some of the world’s most renowned geneticists. Although the science is interesting on its own, it has commercial relevance in that some of these SNPs are probably related to the important Hereford traits such as feed conversion, foraging ability, milk production etc and also the loss of the dominant white face gene, which though cosmetic does have commercial importance to many people.
I’m sure you will think I’m just being a nerd here but with the future of the cattle industry perhaps relying on genomic EBVs, these things are of vital importance. Note that this has nothing to do with parentage verification- a bull can still be a calf’s sire despite having a different breed DNA profile. And in case anyone thinks I am quibbling about animals of 97% purity here, I am not - I’m talking about 25% or less! It really does beg the question- what is a Hereford? A lot of people will say what does it matter? But there is a lot of talk about heterosis in the beef industry — Black Baldies being a prime example- and you’re not going to get a heterosis advantage from what is effectively a crossbred.
The Angus people are also interested in this btw.
I know with Angus mBVs they have to have different reference populations for the NZ/Oz angus vs the US Angus because they are different populations.
I always though the Hereford was quite closely related as the Line 1 experimental herd had such a huge impact on the breed.
 
Reconstructing the Sheeted Somerset breed has thrown up some interesting challenges, particularly the interpretation of Regulation (EU)2016/1012 Animal breeding. Google it if you are really bored!
Predictably the Civil Service have not interpreted the regulations in their guidance in a way that anticipated that anyone would be likely to reconstruct a breed despite the regulations makng it clear that reconstruction is permitted.
Grading up when there is nothng to grade up from means the breeders will enter F1 animals that meet the breed standard in the herdbook .
DEFRA struggle with that one!
Anyone aware of any consultation process prior to the introduction of guidance on the regulations?
I'm guessing the Cadzows had similar problems with the Luing.
 

Cowgirl

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Ayrshire
I know with Angus mBVs they have to have different reference populations for the NZ/Oz angus vs the US Angus because they are different populations.
I always though the Hereford was quite closely related as the Line 1 experimental herd had such a huge impact on the breed.
Yes that’s interesting but I’ll bet the Native Angus (OP) is different again, and there are some in Australia, exported from Scotland. As far as I know there is only one DNA reference used in Herefords, and that is the US one - that needs to change.
In US Herefords, the Line 1s are popular with the ranchers in west of USA but their influence is not as great as you might think. They are still likely to be very different genetically from the OP, especially the Holden and Cooper ones. The old Miles City herd may be much closer but not sure if they have been tested as it difficult to get DNA samples. The only Herefords in US similar to the OPs are the few linebred Anxiety 4th herds.
The polled Herefords however are the ones that are most different.
Also there is the problem of undesirable genes. In NZ you have the Diluter gene in Herefords, same gene as in the Simmental, reported in a paper from 2008, tracing back to an American import. In Australia now they are having problems in Herefords with a recessive gene called Maple Syrup Urine disease which was first reported in Shorthorns. This is lethal as it kills calves at 3-4 days old.
I heard that when DNA testing became compulsory in Australia there were a lot of registered animals discovered to have incorrect parentage, on top of the infiltration with other breeds.
The general opinion on this forum seems to be that breed purity doesn’t matter, but in my opinion until “breeds” are abandoned, it does matter, because if people pay a lot of money for a purebred animal that isn’t, it’s fraud. It also causes serious issues when the genetic diseases of one breed turn up in another. Sooner or later someone has to pay and the only ones to benefit will be lawyers.
 
Yes that’s interesting but I’ll bet the Native Angus (OP) is different again, and there are some in Australia, exported from Scotland. As far as I know there is only one DNA reference used in Herefords, and that is the US one - that needs to change.
In US Herefords, the Line 1s are popular with the ranchers in west of USA but their influence is not as great as you might think. They are still likely to be very different genetically from the OP, especially the Holden and Cooper ones. The old Miles City herd may be much closer but not sure if they have been tested as it difficult to get DNA samples. The only Herefords in US similar to the OPs are the few linebred Anxiety 4th herds.
The polled Herefords however are the ones that are most different.
Also there is the problem of undesirable genes. In NZ you have the Diluter gene in Herefords, same gene as in the Simmental, reported in a paper from 2008, tracing back to an American import. In Australia now they are having problems in Herefords with a recessive gene called Maple Syrup Urine disease which was first reported in Shorthorns. This is lethal as it kills calves at 3-4 days old.
I heard that when DNA testing became compulsory in Australia there were a lot of registered animals discovered to have incorrect parentage, on top of the infiltration with other breeds.
The general opinion on this forum seems to be that breed purity doesn’t matter, but in my opinion until “breeds” are abandoned, it does matter, because if people pay a lot of money for a purebred animal that isn’t, it’s fraud. It also causes serious issues when the genetic diseases of one breed turn up in another. Sooner or later someone has to pay and the only ones to benefit will be lawyers.
Personally I've never had an issue with infiltrating genes from other breeds, as long as it is done under a proper frame work and honestly. I have ingress-ed Myomax into my Finns and Lambmax into my Texels, in is the dis honesty that is the problem.
I've never seen a diluter hereford, but have seen roan herefords commonly and I beleive there is at least 1 white registered Hereford bull, ironically he is of traditional pure british type as roan cattle were common in early Herefords.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 80 42.3%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 66 34.9%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 15.9%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,292
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
Top