Why are rats different?

Muddyroads

Member

NFFN Member

Location

Exeter, Devon

• May 28, 2019

• #1

https://apc01.safelinks.protection....VHOGSCX4FppIqc2wSfThEudhqKvb0=&reserved=0
So Natural England, the National Trust, the RSPB and the Landmark Trust are happy to eradicate all the rats from Lundy Island and happily report a huge increase in the bird population. How come we are not therefore allowed to even control certain other predators by these very same organisations?

 

V

vantage

Member

Livestock Farmer

Location

Pembs

• May 28, 2019

• #2

They abide by the maxim "Do as I say,but not as I do"?

 

TheTallGuy

Member

Location

Cambridgeshire

• May 28, 2019

• #3

Rats don't have legal protection under Wildlife & Countryside Act... unlike certain other animals that some consider to be vermin.

 

D

DrWazzock

Member

Arable Farmer

Location

Lincolnshire

• May 28, 2019

• #4

Animal racism.

 

Campani

Member

• May 28, 2019

• #5

rats are not native to a lot of islands and the birds never evolved to cope with rat predation. The rats were introduced by man. In the same way Mink and grey Squirrels are not native and there is minimal controls on managing them. crows, weasels, foxes, badgers are all native species of the UK.

 

Dry Rot

Member

Livestock Farmer

Location

Scottish Highlands

• May 28, 2019

• #6

Campani said:

rats are not native to a lot of islands and the birds never evolved to cope with rat predation. The rats were introduced by man. In the same way Mink and grey Squirrels are not native and there is minimal controls on managing them. crows, weasels, foxes, badgers are all native species of the UK.

Click to expand...

And your proof is.......?

 

Longlowdog

Member

Livestock Farmer

Location

Aberdeenshire

• May 28, 2019

• #7

Non-indigenous rats on Lundy is a verified fact. Neither brown nor black rats are indigenous with both only having arrived in the UK with the advent of ship trade. Now, you could argue that throughout the UK a couple of millennia entitles an animal to be considered a native and you may be right, but a couple of hundred years certainly doesn't with regards to rats on Lundy.

 

Guy Smith

Member

✓

Location

Essex

• May 28, 2019

• #8

Given the way the bloody things seem to love it so much in the UK - i always find it remarkable that the Brown rat didn't arrive in the UK until the 1730s.

 

Campani

Member

• May 28, 2019

• #9

Dry Rot said:

And your proof is.......?

Click to expand...

Its pretty widely held knowledge that humans and ships have moved rats all over the world. they definitely didn't evolve independently in Asia, America,Africa and Lundy to become the same species.

 

Dry Rot

Member

Livestock Farmer

Location

Scottish Highlands

• May 28, 2019

• #10

Campani said:

Its pretty widely held knowledge that humans and ships have moved rats all over the world. they definitely didn't evolve independently in Asia, America,Africa and Lundy to become the same species.

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If you can prove a negative, I take my hat off to you.

 

Muddyroads

Member

NFFN Member

Location

Exeter, Devon

• May 28, 2019

• #11

I have no problem with the action taken to protect the birds on Lundy. What strikes me as hypocritical is that the very organisations that are behind this complete removal of a species are equally keen to prevent us as land managers from controlling (not eradicating, just controlling) other predators of wildlife. Maybe they were just lucky that the rats aren’t a protected species, but then again, who’s in charge of those designations?

 

Bury the Trash

Member

Mixed Farmer

• May 28, 2019

• #12

Seems like Hedgehogs are a problem in NZ ….funny old world..

 

Muddyroads

Member

NFFN Member

Location

Exeter, Devon

• May 28, 2019

• #13

We could suggest a remedy for that, couldn’t we Mr May!?

 

MickMoor

Member

Location

Bonsall, UK

• May 28, 2019

• #14

I think conservationists are the biggest threat to the ecology of England.Their population should be controlled.

 

Dry Rot

Member

Livestock Farmer

Location

Scottish Highlands

• May 29, 2019

• #15

Hedgehogs have been 'translocated' from the Uists to 'rescuers' on the mainland as they eat eggs. Is there any evidence to suggest that hedgehogs are not indigenous and native to the islands and the birds any different to mainland birds where their eggs are normally predated by hedgehogs?

Apparently my name came up as someone who might train the locals in the use of dogs to hunt them, but that got vetoed because my solution would have involved something a bit more permanent than they wanted! It would be interesting to know what that control and rehoming is costing them now.

 

C

Cranman

Member

• Jun 1, 2019

• #16

A couple of years ago we visited Handa island off the Scottish west coast, to see the seabird colonies managed by the Wildlife Trusts. On arrival we were treated to an introductory talk and told that rats were live trapped and relocated to the mainland. Naturally we queried this, and were then told that of course the rats were killed, but telling us this might upset some of their visitors!

 

Last edited: Jun 1, 2019

Brisel

Member

Arable Farmer

Location

Midlands

• Jun 1, 2019

• #17

The most common rat outside London is actually the Norwegian rat. The Black rats that once spread the bubonic plague favour big urban population centres.

If you want to see who is the biggest licenced killer of raptors, I suggest you look at the Natural England website to reveal... The RSPB...

Here's a taster to get you started http://raptorpolitics.org.uk/2016/0...icence-permitting-the-killing-of-10-buzzards/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ot-hunting-laws-protection-rspb-a8685951.html

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-170000-wild-bird-kill-permits-in-five-years

 

Muddyroads

Member

NFFN Member

Location

Exeter, Devon

• Jun 1, 2019

• #18

Call me cynical, but I can’t help thinking that rats are being blamed for reductions in wildlife on these islands because there aren’t enough farmers to pin the blame on.

 

Danllan

Member

Location

Sir Gar / Carms

• Jun 2, 2019

• #19

Dry Rot said:

And your proof is.......?

Click to expand...

Historical records give us clear dates to work from, and they tally with the fact that there are no fossil or any other sort of records of either the black or brown rat before about 250 and 1720 respectively. Add to that the genetic studies which reveal the rate of mutation away from original populations and it becomes pretty clear that rats aren't native - as in they got here via anthropogenic means.

http://www.nonnativespecies.org/factsheet/factsheet.cfm?speciesId=2980

http://www.nonnativespecies.org/factsheet/factsheet.cfm?speciesId=2979

 

Dry Rot

Member

Livestock Farmer

Location

Scottish Highlands

• Jun 2, 2019

• #20

Danllan said:

Historical records give us clear dates to work from, and they tally with the fact that there are no fossil or any other sort of records of either the black or brown rat before about 250 and 1720 respectively. Add to that the genetic studies which reveal the rate of mutation away from original populations and it becomes pretty clear that rats aren't native - as in they got here via anthropogenic means.

http://www.nonnativespecies.org/factsheet/factsheet.cfm?speciesId=2980

http://www.nonnativespecies.org/factsheet/factsheet.cfm?speciesId=2979

Click to expand...

"Pretty clear" is not proof of a negative.

It was long supposed that the Normans introduced the rabbit. But recent evidence suggests they've been here since Roman times. But that doesn't disprove the hypothesis that they've been here a lot longer!

I still say the Black Rat should be reintroduced to Whitehall, it's native habitat, where the 'experts' could keep an eye on it and ensure it's welfare from the comfort of their centrally heated offices.