"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

texas pete

Member
Location
East Mids
No worries here.

They're only (trying) to fix a problem, if you cut them down every year then you have to fix the problems yourself, and it costs a fudge sight more.

But, that's the whole point, isn't it?
To replace natural systems and processes with extra work, extra cost, and a couple more scoops of hand-wringing....
:dead::whistle:

To be fair, that's a bit simplistic.

Once management is correct, they become less of an issue, if an issue at all. They appear and thrive because we give them suitable conditions and encouragement, after all.

What do you do in the meantime though, let them go to seed and pee of the neighbours...:cool:
 
I've watched Hebridean sheep walk round a field when they were moved in and go around hauling the leaves off docks ignoring the grass completely. (Interestingly, it was a field that was completely blackened with pigs in very wet weather, not a trace of greenery to be seen, never seeded but is a dense carpet of grass. The cows love it)
Seen an Hebridean nip off a ten inch long young bracken stem and consume it earlier this year and I've also watched two Tamworth sows go around a field targeting and digging up the scotch thistle and eat the tap root before they looked at the grass.

You only ever see woody dock stems left in the bottom of a ring feeder, and whether he was right or not, the farmer I did some silage work with in New Zealand said he would rather there were thistles in his silage (chopped) as they were full of sugars and were a benefit (y)
 

texas pete

Member
Location
East Mids
I experimented in April 18 sowing some grass with a bit of clover and chicory. Direct in after turnips, which had been drilled into a wheat stubble.

This is what I drilled into.
E049462A-79A5-43E4-9C56-471DDB677173.jpeg


It looks like this now.
8C251E0B-951B-40F4-BFAC-F06B7F12A053.jpeg

84403B7A-58BC-45FB-A90F-3B768282CCC8.jpeg


It struggled last spring and summer as there was moisture at sowing, plenty in fact, but non of any significance after, until the 29th of July. Light dry soil too, so if I had ploughed and cultivated it would have failed I’m sure. I think the biggest factor was the time it took the grass to cover the bare soil allowed the thistles to thrive. Roundup pre sowing would have helped, but there was a fair population of grass already and I would sooner not. I am topping them now :eek: So the neighbours and hedge watchers can rest easy. Luckily IDGAF of the opinions of others. :)
 

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texas pete

Member
Location
East Mids
I've watched Hebridean sheep walk round a field when they were moved in and go around hauling the leaves off docks ignoring the grass completely. (Interestingly, it was a field that was completely blackened with pigs in very wet weather, not a trace of greenery to be seen, never seeded but is a dense carpet of grass. The cows love it)
Seen an Hebridean nip off a ten inch long young bracken stem and consume it earlier this year and I've also watched two Tamworth sows go around a field targeting and digging up the scotch thistle and eat the tap root before they looked at the grass.

You only ever see woody dock stems left in the bottom of a ring feeder, and whether he was right or not, the farmer I did some silage work with in New Zealand said he would rather there were thistles in his silage (chopped) as they were full of sugars and were a benefit (y)

I suppose it depends what stock you are feeding and how you want to feed them. I try to avoid hay/silage if I can and I couldn't get the sheep to eat the thistles in my pics above..:)

Docks I agree never seem to be an issue, they get eaten and they don't poison things so I doubt they do much harm.
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer

texas pete

Member
Location
East Mids
? how do you know that ? you could've ploughed half and just drilled half..... now that would've been proper trial then (y)



https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/identification-of-injurious-weeds

As sure as I can be. Ploughing and cultivating, one little old tractor and one not so old man is about the best way I can think of to dry out light soil in the spring. It struggled a lot as it was and at times I thought it had died, but it recovered well enough when the rain did arrive.
 

baaa

Member
I experimented in April 18 sowing some grass with a bit of clover and chicory. Direct in after turnips, which had been drilled into a wheat stubble.

This is what I drilled into.
View attachment 809846

It looks like this now. View attachment 809844
View attachment 809848

It struggled last spring and summer as there was moisture at sowing, plenty in fact, but non of any significance after, until the 29th of July. Light dry soil too, so if I had ploughed and cultivated it would have failed I’m sure. I think the biggest factor was the time it took the grass to cover the bare soil allowed the thistles to thrive. Roundup pre sowing would have helped, but there was a fair population of grass already and I would sooner not. I am topping them now :eek: So the neighbours and hedge watchers can rest easy. Luckily IDGAF of the opinions of others. :)
Your right these thistles are pretty inedible. We have another type with smaller needles. In fact, in France, it is against the law to let any thistle get to flowering stage. I think this is because France won't allow GM crops to be grown and they have banned the use of round up, so a thistle epidemic in crop fields would be difficult to treat. I don't know how long a plant lives if it is not allowed to flower. I will find out for myself in the next couple of years!
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
I dont remember anyonegetting prosecuted for allowing injurous weeds, too many dont do anything about ragwort. The
Council highways is as bad as any of them .
But yes stopping seeding formation is first priority i guess... after that .....


No idea about French varieties of thistle but.....

Creeping thistle is a perennial , its needs tap root reserves wearing down even then it will survive fro m a small thing , tough beggars, i think if you knock it off a t a critical time like just before of at flowering it does most damage.....
Spear thistle is a funny one , a biennial that will be got rid of after fewer years than the creepers..and .deff after seeding.
Its funny one because it also needs vernalisation before it will grow out into the bigger more upright monster plant that goes to seed.
In its first year if its not been vernalised.... and then gone on to flower even if you top it off "in july .... it wont necessarily die" ;)
Happy days .

Edit. I forgot to say last year we had a small paddock fairly full with spear thistle and gone to flower, was near the buildings ... anyway the outcome ..especially with the sunshine that we had was thousands of bees....... everywhere ..(y):unsure:..:bag:
 
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Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
To be fair, that's a bit simplistic.

Once management is correct, they become less of an issue, if an issue at all. They appear and thrive because we give them suitable conditions and encouragement, after all.

What do you do in the meantime though, let them go to seed and pee off the neighbours...:cool:
Learn to love them. The easiest way by far to "manage" them.... or many other "problems"

(I was hoping someone would comment, if I was provocative enough). Thanks Pete! :cool:

Context is HUGE!

For an example, someone in the midwest US with 50,000 acres is NOT going to worry about thistles, docks, ragwort the way someone with 200 acres is going to worry...
Why? Because they will see the futility of 'action', as opposed to a change of management (which is, technically, an action :rolleyes:).

Similarly Mr Bigtime will not worry if the soil pH isn't correct for high-sugar ryegrass, or wonder when's the best time to plough a tenth of his land for a reseed, or whether he needs a topper.
At large scale, most of the options open to a wealthy smallholder are simply impractical to implement - which is why I look to those big ranchers for solutions.
They can't "whack on 3 tons of lime per acre" or 10 tons of manure, spray, mow it or completely change their usage of the landscape.

Most of these problems are only "monsters under the bed", not actually a landscape problem so much as a management problem expressing itself through the plants that grow there... on that landscape

And usually - the symptoms point back to one underlying problem that needs to be solved - our system is degenerative, ie it is haemorrhaging carbon somewhere, usually a variety of leaks..

Sometimes it's through lack of groundcover, cultivation or creating bare soil is a fantastic way to do this.
Sometimes it's because we are grazing/removing more than what the landscape would naturally grow; or replacing what is removed with the wrong stuff.
Dead stuff, toxic stuff, is generally not what is needed. :dead: Most fertiliser is as dead as it's possible to be.

And sometimes, it's simply because we are weakening the more desirable plants through poor grazing, which would otherwise easily outcompete the less desirable ones.
Sometimes we don't even know why we are choosing to grow these particular species, other than "it pays alright", which is interesting when you consider that the most profitable ecosystems are the most natural ones? :unsure:

Sometimes our first reaction, to get rid of the evidence, is the main problem. (y) I did that, the thistles stayed - I learnt to love them, and they left - it can't have been "meant to be"? (n)

If I happened upon a car smash, the problems are reasonably apparent, but hiding the bloodsoaked bandages will not help the bodies recover.
Slowing the bleeding may help the outcome more!

That's what I was meaning by "hand-wringing" in my earlier post, just like at that car smash; if someone isn't going to be helping to address the main underlying problems, then they are probably better off back behind the cordon.
But if they're able to help keeping pressure on a wound, or monitor a patient, then that's a big help. I think we sometimes need to stop rushing around doing, and use our minds for that amount of time.

:)
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
Learn to love them. The easiest way by far to "manage" them.... or many other "problems"

(I was hoping someone would comment, if I was provocative enough). Thanks Pete! :cool:

Context is HUGE!

For an example, someone in the midwest US with 50,000 acres is NOT going to worry about thistles, docks, ragwort the way someone with 200 acres is going to worry...
Why? Because they will see the futility of 'action', as opposed to a change of management (which is, technically, an action :rolleyes:).

Similarly Mr Bigtime will not worry if the soil pH isn't correct for high-sugar ryegrass, or wonder when's the best time to plough a tenth of his land for a reseed, or whether he needs a topper.
At large scale, most of the options open to a wealthy smallholder are simply impractical to implement - which is why I look to those big ranchers for solutions.
They can't "whack on 3 tons of lime per acre" or 10 tons of manure, spray, mow it or completely change their usage of the landscape.

Most of these problems are only "monsters under the bed", not actually a landscape problem so much as a management problem expressing itself through the plants that grow there... on that landscape

And usually - the symptoms point back to one underlying problem that needs to be solved - our system is degenerative, ie it is haemorrhaging carbon somewhere, usually a variety of leaks..

Sometimes it's through lack of groundcover, cultivation or creating bare soil is a fantastic way to do this.
Sometimes it's because we are grazing/removing more than what the landscape would naturally grow; or replacing what is removed with the wrong stuff.
Dead stuff, toxic stuff, is generally not what is needed. :dead: Most fertiliser is as dead as it's possible to be.

And sometimes, it's simply because we are weakening the more desirable plants through poor grazing, which would otherwise easily outcompete the less desirable ones.
Sometimes we don't even know why we are choosing to grow these particular species, other than "it pays alright", which is interesting when you consider that the most profitable ecosystems are the most natural ones? :unsure:

Sometimes our first reaction, to get rid of the evidence, is the main problem. (y) I did that, the thistles stayed - I learnt to love them, and they left - it can't have been "meant to be"? (n)

If I happened upon a car smash, the problems are reasonably apparent, but hiding the bloodsoaked bandages will not help the bodies recover.
Slowing the bleeding may help the outcome more!

That's what I was meaning by "hand-wringing" in my earlier post, just like at that car smash; if someone isn't going to be helping to address the main underlying problems, then they are probably better off back behind the cordon.
But if they're able to help keeping pressure on a wound, or monitor a patient, then that's a big help. I think we sometimes need to stop rushing around doing, and use our minds for that amount of time.

:)
Excellent summary (y)

But where do the Ag suppliers come in? :rolleyes:
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
Yeah well I find the crumbly loose cultivated soil lets the light showers in to the plants ive planted. I prefer runner beans rather than spear thistle with my silverside but each to their own i guess . To that end i'll hapilly except one of 2 weeds in the field tho if i have too (y)

P.s. the fodder beet are busy saving this rain for later :cool:
 
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texas pete

Member
Location
East Mids
Learn to love them. The easiest way by far to "manage" them.... or many other "problems"

(I was hoping someone would comment, if I was provocative enough). Thanks Pete! :cool:

Context is HUGE!

For an example, someone in the midwest US with 50,000 acres is NOT going to worry about thistles, docks, ragwort the way someone with 200 acres is going to worry...
Why? Because they will see the futility of 'action', as opposed to a change of management (which is, technically, an action :rolleyes:).

Similarly Mr Bigtime will not worry if the soil pH isn't correct for high-sugar ryegrass, or wonder when's the best time to plough a tenth of his land for a reseed, or whether he needs a topper.
At large scale, most of the options open to a wealthy smallholder are simply impractical to implement - which is why I look to those big ranchers for solutions.
They can't "whack on 3 tons of lime per acre" or 10 tons of manure, spray, mow it or completely change their usage of the landscape.

Most of these problems are only "monsters under the bed", not actually a landscape problem so much as a management problem expressing itself through the plants that grow there... on that landscape

And usually - the symptoms point back to one underlying problem that needs to be solved - our system is degenerative, ie it is haemorrhaging carbon somewhere, usually a variety of leaks..

Sometimes it's through lack of groundcover, cultivation or creating bare soil is a fantastic way to do this.
Sometimes it's because we are grazing/removing more than what the landscape would naturally grow; or replacing what is removed with the wrong stuff.
Dead stuff, toxic stuff, is generally not what is needed. :dead: Most fertiliser is as dead as it's possible to be.

And sometimes, it's simply because we are weakening the more desirable plants through poor grazing, which would otherwise easily outcompete the less desirable ones.
Sometimes we don't even know why we are choosing to grow these particular species, other than "it pays alright", which is interesting when you consider that the most profitable ecosystems are the most natural ones? :unsure:

Sometimes our first reaction, to get rid of the evidence, is the main problem. (y) I did that, the thistles stayed - I learnt to love them, and they left - it can't have been "meant to be"? (n)

If I happened upon a car smash, the problems are reasonably apparent, but hiding the bloodsoaked bandages will not help the bodies recover.
Slowing the bleeding may help the outcome more!

That's what I was meaning by "hand-wringing" in my earlier post, just like at that car smash; if someone isn't going to be helping to address the main underlying problems, then they are probably better off back behind the cordon.
But if they're able to help keeping pressure on a wound, or monitor a patient, then that's a big help. I think we sometimes need to stop rushing around doing, and use our minds for that amount of time.

:)

Can't disagree with any of that.

That's why it's good to make mistakes, and learn from them :rolleyes:

My only problem is, one of my favourite pastimes is "pernicious weed" destruction, by flail or by spray. It's a habit I have to kick, but it's tough. I will get there. :)
 

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