Farm subsidies.. Yay or nay

yellow belly · Jun 18, 2019

fgc325j said:
The figure bandied about as being the national avg. income, i believe, is 28k.
But who would receive it, the name of the person on the business, or his son
who is actually doing the work. There have been postings on TFF about the
avg. age of farmer's being 58, and a lot have posted that this refers to the
age of the figurehead in the business, not the actual grafter.

The 300 acre farm with 3 partners could farm as 3 100 acre farms

Larger farms with managers and staff
could set each up as a farmer with an overall contractor

The original area payments plan set a limit of 170 acres in 1991

unlacedgecko · Jun 18, 2019

Henarar said:
What would yearly min wage be ?

£8.21 per hour. Based on a 48 week working year and a 40 working week that's £15,763.20 gross per annum.

unlacedgecko · Jun 18, 2019

FonterraFarmer said:
Ahh, but what is a "conventional farmer"? The one who farms like their father or worse their grandfather, or the one continually following the fashion of the day or the slave to technology?
The perspective of reality is distorted by the politics of the country that you farm in and merely replicating what is done abroad without understanding the dynamics of the environment that you are farming is doomed to failure.
The ultimate question is, is it possible anywhere in the world to be able to be a farmer and to be able to farm without subsidies, supply management or direct or indirect government intervention and restrictive tariffs?
Very easy to be insular and narrow minded, but travel abroad will either open the mind or give one the focus or justification that give one the confidence to farming on a tangent.
That said , as a statement is directed at no one, it's said as an observation or generalisation as result of going overseas and returning to NZ over the years.

Subsistence farmers all over the world do so.

Henarar · Jun 18, 2019

unlacedgecko said:
£8.21 per hour. Based on a 48 week working year and a 40 working week that's £15,763.20 gross per annum.

that would do, why would anyone want more

Bossfarmer · Jun 18, 2019

fgc325j said:
The figure bandied about as being the national avg. income, i believe, is 28k.
But who would receive it, the name of the person on the business, or his son
who is actually doing the work. There have been postings on TFF about the
avg. age of farmer's being 58, and a lot have posted that this refers to the
age of the figurehead in the business, not the actual grafter.

surely it would need to be 28k per partner?

holwellcourtfarm · Jun 18, 2019

Henarar said:
that would do, why would anyone want more

That's about what we get in subs now......

turbo · Jun 18, 2019

Bossfarmer said:
surely it would need to be 28k per partner?

Wondered how long before you came along with your begging bowl?

FonterraFarmer · Jun 18, 2019

unlacedgecko said:
Subsistence farmers all over the world do so.

Is happiness directly proportional to money or worse perceived wealth?

unlacedgecko · Jun 18, 2019

FonterraFarmer said:
Is happiness directly proportional to money or worse perceived wealth?

No.

Happiness is a totally individual thing.

FonterraFarmer · Jun 18, 2019

turbo said:
Wondered how long before you came along with your begging bowl?

Tweed cap? At least be geographically correct.

fgc325j · Jun 18, 2019

yellow belly said:
The 300 acre farm with 3 partners could farm as 3 100 acre farms

Larger farms with managers and staff
could set each up as a farmer with an overall contractor

The original area payments plan set a limit of 170 acres in 1991

"could set up" - but they could get round that because they already know the acreage of
each holding, so if it was planned to divide a holding re: your idea, then they could state
that the 3 new holdings have to been formed through the sale of each parcel of land, with the new
owner having his name on the new title deeds of each divided holding, with each new holding
having the appropiate house, farm buildings in order for it to qualify as a new holding, and
being able to claim the proposed subsidy. Remember - we are talking about an idea which
a TFF member suggested - and not some official policy from the Minister, or some EU bod ,
so this is pure blue sky thinking.

New holland · Jun 18, 2019

Our sfp is very little would we be able to say we don't want any payment and farm how we want too got 150 acres and all good flat ground can't see what we can do for environmental payments like planting trees etc we farm in wales

Flower Power · Jun 18, 2019

fgc325j said:
"could set up" - but they could get round that because they already know the acreage of
each holding, so if it was planned to divide a holding re: your idea, then they could state
that the 3 new holdings have to been formed through the sale of each parcel of land, with the new
owner having his name on the new title deeds of each divided holding, with each new holding
having the appropiate house, farm buildings in order for it to qualify as a new holding, and
being able to claim the proposed subsidy. Remember - we are talking about an idea which
a TFF member suggested - and not some official policy from the Minister, or some EU bod ,
so this is pure blue sky thinking.

Interesting suggestion. You mention checking land ownership so how would this work for tenant farmers? Who would get the money, the landowner or the tenant? Would you need to be a 'farmer' and how do you define a 'farmer'?

Dave645 · Jun 18, 2019

A basic minimum will never get past the post, because it involves no targets, this is why environmental stuff is talked about, it’s to create targets to the base the payments on,

So No I cannot see a minimum income guarantee ever getting off the ground.

I could see it used as a cap. Maybe, but even that’s complex, partners etc,

I can more likely see flat rate payments per Ha but on sliding scales, so instead of what we get now, a flat rate for everyone, regardless of their size. A more realistic one where farm size and environmental targets dictate the levels of sub.
This may see small farmer payments jump up and large farmers payment fall, to better balance the system, and reduce the overall level of subsidy.

It will all depend on, if they want to keep small farmers farming or not.
And if they want to encourage new entrants in. Let’s face it if smaller growers were getting £200/acres in payments it would allow them to rent land in, and the reverse is true for the big men, it would encourage them to drop rented land to maybe get overall larger area payments if they were just above one of the new thresholds.

I don’t expect they will allow artificial breakups of large farms where the controlling interests are still the same people. Just trying to maximise area payments.

My preference would be farm size, and an ELS points system, dictate area payments, with maybe an overall Capp on a maximum payment any one farm can get.
No free money for putting in environmental stuff but intrest free loans if the said items are put in by the farmer, if the farmer is found not to have used the money to install said items the loan reverts to a normal interest loan.

Lowland1 · Jun 19, 2019

I would give the payment to every business claiming the SFP today irrespective of size so if you've got 50 acres well done, 20,000 acres tough luck (You've still got 20,000 acres though). It's just an idea but I do think it would probably allow some people to get a start.

d-wales · Jun 19, 2019

I dont think there is a way the industry can be subsidised fairly, someone will always 'win or lose'

Probably the fairest way is to create a 100% environmental system where farmers can sign up if they want to.

fgc325j · Jun 19, 2019

Flower Power said:
Interesting suggestion. You mention checking land ownership so how would this work for tenant farmers? Who would get the money, the landowner or the tenant? Would you need to be a 'farmer' and how do you define a 'farmer'?

I remember reading a posting from a TFF member in France, where they stated that if a farmer's income
from farming is less than 50%, then they do not get any farming subsidy. So i can only assume that there
exists an Eu protocol, where farmer's incomes are checked before a subsidy is payed out.
I cannot see UK farmer's welcoming that with open arms

Bossfarmer · Jun 19, 2019

they looked at capping payments in the UK, also giving higher calf headage subs to smaller beef farmers but it was decided that it was unfair to punish those who had expanded, its the whole point of business is to strive to improve your profits

Bossfarmer · Jun 19, 2019

turbo said:
Wondered how long before you came along with your begging bowl?

take all you can get if you are a true businessman, our competitors around the world arent turning their subs down why should we? farmers need to stand up for theirselves

turbo · Jun 19, 2019

Bossfarmer said:
take all you can get if you are a true businessman, our competitors around the world arent turning their subs down why should we? farmers need to stand up for theirselves

You wouldn’t know what a true businessman was if it bit you on the arse!

Farm subsidies.. Yay or nay

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Up to 25%

25-50%

50-75%

75-100%

100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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