Help me answer a question about abattoirs

Full stun halal is almost identical to “normal” slaughter - a prayer is said, a specific knife is used and the slaughterman faces a specific direction. I would have no issues with that for my animals.

Kosher has no pre-stun, so is intuitively less “peaceful”, as is (obviously) non stun halal. That said, I have dispatched animals at home with a sharp knife and there was no recognisable reaction whatsoever - the head was detached within half a second and no reaction was noted during that time. I don’t know first hand if it’s as clinical in an abattoir, but I suspect it is, although the scale will obviously make it harder and take a bit longer for cattle. The emotive videos you see on YouTube and the likes will not be representative of UK non-stun slaughter.

My animals are full stun non religious as a default, although I have arranged to have some full stun halal done for specific requests.

DanielBennett said:

As a farmer are you able to tell us what the process is once the animals leave your care and whether you have any further involvement. Are you in a position to select abattoir facilities where the full process and care of the animals is known to you.

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Selling deadweight, the farmer has full control of the destination and therefore method of slaughter. If using own transport,he also has full control of that too. (see @Highland Mule's post above).

Selling liveweight (i.e. in a market), once they leave your vehicle that's pretty much where the control ends. Very often you won't be 100% sure who's bidding until the hammer falls. You can (in a green market) refuse to let the auctioneer sell if you don't like the price but I've never seen anyone refuse to sell because they didn't like the buyer.

I believe there are no non-stun abattoirs in Scotland - is that correct? It is my one concern with live markets that the seller has no control of where the animals go, which is why all ours go direct to slaughter locally.

So, is the method of slaughter explained on the label in the supermarket or is that only when the meat is passed as suitable for some minority religion? (Hope I have phrased that politely, we are all entitled to our own religions and beliefs).

I would assume that in the absence of any label to the contrary, it would have been conventionally slaughtered? Frankly, I've never suspected otherwise, but now I think about it, perhaps not.

Dry Rot said:

I've never suspected otherwise, but now I think about it, perhaps not.

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I suspect you're correct.
IIRC, only the forequarters of beef are kosher - I expect the hindquarters find their way into other outlets.

Tell him to stop being such a pussy, and to instead go and ask the providers of his 'mostly plant based' how they kill all the pests of their crops in the third world.

DanielBennett said:

Hi
I am involved in a Facebook post about meat eating v vegan/vegetarian.

I have been posed what strikes me as a sensible question. See below any help appreciated before I answer.

“Hi Dan. Just a query if I may. I consider myself to be mostly plant based; I do occasionally have meat and dairy but it is rare. I have found that by being plant based, I have been able to greatly improve and reduce symptoms of some long standing health conditions. I try to follow the advice of Dr Caldwell Esselstyn [Cardiologist] and whilst I don't speak for others, the benefits in my own case are very plain to see.

Back to my question; when I do consume meat and dairy, I prefer to go direct to the farmer [for ethical and health reasons]; I purchase raw milk and also find that this has brought many health benefits.

We do I think accept that it is in the farmer's interest to have healthy and well looked after animals, but one thing which does concern me is conditions in the abattoirs and in particular the fact that current law does not require the method of slaughter to be stipulated on packaging. Whilst I most certainly do not want to start another thread of a contentious nature, I readily admit to finding religious slaughter to be an abhorrent thing and this is the primary reason I buy any meat from an individual I know personally and who personally takes her animals to the abattoir for slaughter [she is very small scale].

As a farmer are you able to tell us what the process is once the animals leave your care and whether you have any further involvement. Are you in a position to select abattoir facilities where the full process and care of the animals is known to you.

Thank you in advance for what you may perceive as somewhat silly questions.”

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We sell pigs direct to the abbatoir/processor on a deadweight basis. The meat will generally end up on a UK supermarket shelf. As I understand it, there's no such thing as halal or kosher pork, so the ethics of ritual slaughter aren't something that comes into our marketing decision.

in response to the questions raised in the penultimate paragraph:

We have a contract with a retailer to buy our animals, and the processor is engaged via a marketing group. Once in that arrangement, it is not within our gift to select which abattoir, or even which processor, takes our pigs (although clearly we are able to terminate the arrangement and sell our pigs to whoever we wish).

I think the processor selects which plant theyd like our pigs to go to, rather than the retailer or marketing group. Of the two plants our pigs generally go to, the difference in travel times is quite marked (less than 2h, to over 4h). If we were worried by the travel time, we may be able to challenge travel to the more distant plant. However, we buy our breeding stock from further afield and they are content and placid when they come off the truck at our place, so presumably the same is the case at the abattoir. On that basis, we have no cause for concern regarding travel times.

When the truck has left the farm, we place our trust in the haulier and the processor to handle our livestock properly. We could technically follow the truck, and observe our stock in lairage, right up to the point of slaughter, but that could only be with the consent of the processor. Practically, we would not do this as it would mean a day off-farm, and two days thereafter to become "pig clean" before returning to work. We sell pigs every week, so 3 days out of 7, one of us would be off-work; not viable. (We have sent our vet to observe before, but thats a whole other story.)

The process is pretty similar in all specialist pork abattoirs. The animals are stunned (immediately rendering them insensible), hung up with a chain noose around the ankle, and then are killed/bled by having the arteries/veins across the top of their hearts severed via an incision in the neck. The method of stunning may vary. At the abattoir I visited, they placed the pigs, in small groups, in an atmosphere comprising a mixture of CO2 and inert gases, causing a loss of consciousness. In the past, and presumably still in some abattoirs, stunning was performed individually using an electric probe at the base of the skull.

I haven't visited the abattoirs we generally send our pigs to, but have been to another similar plant. The thought and care that had gone into the facility design was remarkable, and the levels of stockmanship very high. If all our animals are handled the same way as I saw them being handled on my visit, I have no qualms about the way our animals are slaughtered.

Hope that helps you engage with a potential consumer of ours.

delilah said:

Tell him to stop being such a pussy, and to instead go and ask the providers of his 'mostly plant based' how they kill all the pests of their crops in the third world.

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I see where you’re coming from and largely agree but in all fairness that is a separate question and a separate issue.

Tarw Coch said:

I see where you’re coming from and largely agree but in all fairness that is a separate question and a separate issue.

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Maybe, maybe not. If I was the enquirer with the 'mainly plant based diet' I would be pleased to have the wider point about animal welfare and my dietary choices raised, would make me think about the bigger picture.

delilah said:

Maybe, maybe not. If I was the enquirer with the 'mainly plant based diet' I would be pleased to have the wider point about animal welfare and my dietary choices raised, would make me think about the bigger picture.

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Not long ago I went out for lunch, with the food and beverage carefully selected and local with the provenance that goes with it, they also had the impossible burger to which I enquired as to what products were used and traceability from the origin of manufacture, to which the waitress could not answer. If the staff can't answer a question about the food that they provide or serve to customers, doesn't inspire confidence, eh.?

Back in January I had a pig on a spit for my 40th, Rob my eight year old was very taken a back by the sight of the raw pig before we cooked it, and said to a friend of mine that was helping to set up the party that it was sad that animals had to die so we can eat meat. I was worried that he might worry over this or stop eating meat. So it's easy to see how people make the choice to go vegan.
And I our case Rob still loves his potatoes, meat and gravy. At home there has always been sheep and cattle up to 2 years ago so he was used to seeing animals about the place.

Canada Farmer said:

Not long ago I went out for lunch, with the food and beverage carefully selected and local with the provenance that goes with it, they also had the impossible burger to which I enquired as to what products were used and traceability from the origin of manufacture, to which the waitress could not answer. If the staff can't answer a question about the food that they provide or serve to customers, doesn't inspire confidence, eh.?

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I had a smug vegan lecture me about the sustainability of their dietary choice. They were swigging a bottle of Budweiser, which made them an easy hit I just told them to go away and research the ingredients.
Someone looking for a research topic should do a 'food miles' study of alcoholic drinks, I reckon you would do well to find something worse than a bud.

DanielBennett said:

Thank you all for taking the time to post; very helpful and I will be able to respond to the Facebook group in a positive and constructive way.

delilah whilst I do agree with your thinking, having spent many years working in marketing, you can say what you want, but until somebody is listening you might as well save your words. But I will subtly (in marketing terms with a touch of irony its called "seeding") introduce that thought.

Dan

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Absolutely. And fair play to you for taking the time to engage with them. Anyone puts a vegan comment on our fb page it just gets ignored, if they are going to see the light it will be through continuing to follow our posts and working it out for themselves, not through me getting in a one-to-one barney with them.

Dry Rot said:

I would assume that in the absence of any label to the contrary, it would have been conventionally slaughtered? Frankly, I've never suspected otherwise, but now I think about it, perhaps not.

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Unfortunately I don’t think this is correct unless it’s from a small abattoir. Logic dictates that if you were running a large abattoir with 2 sets of customers, 1 with specific requirements and 1 not, but the end product is exactly the same, you wouldn’t run 2 production lines unless there was a cost saving benefit.
The only reference to slaughter on meat labels is the abattoir number. An individual would have to do a fair bit of research to identify their methods, if they could at all.
Even the ministry vet at my local small abattoir thought it might be on a label.
Information could perhaps be stated if the industry pushed for it, but personally I think so many people are squeamish about the concept of slaughter, that any attention drawn to it would be counter productive.

delilah said:

I had a smug vegan lecture me about the sustainability of their dietary choice. They were swigging a bottle of Budweiser, which made them an easy hit I just told them to go away and research the ingredients.
Someone looking for a research topic should do a 'food miles' study of alcoholic drinks, I reckon you would do well to find something worse than a bud.

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Wine kilometres? That I'd must admit I'm guilty of, all 19,200km of them....?????

Muddyroads said:

Unfortunately I don’t think this is correct unless it’s from a small abattoir. Logic dictates that if you were running a large abattoir with 2 sets of customers, 1 with specific requirements and 1 not, but the end product is exactly the same, you wouldn’t run 2 production lines unless there was a cost saving benefit.
The only reference to slaughter on meat labels is the abattoir number. An individual would have to do a fair bit of research to identify their methods, if they could at all.
Even the ministry vet at my local small abattoir thought it might be on a label.
Information could perhaps be stated if the industry pushed for it, but personally I think so many people are squeamish about the concept of slaughter, that any attention drawn to it would be counter productive.

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If I recall correctly, most slaughter in big abattoirs is also halal and stunned - for the reasons you say. The process for Halal slaughter with stunning is pretty much the same as "normal" slaughter, wit the exception that a prayer is said after the animal is bled.

SteveHants said:

If I recall correctly, most slaughter in big abattoirs is also halal and stunned - for the reasons you say. The process for Halal slaughter with stunning is pretty much the same as "normal" slaughter, wit the exception that a prayer is said after the animal is bled.

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Which shouldn’t offend any Christians either - if they do have an issue with it, they haven’t read enough of Paul’s letters.