New Zealand suffolk ram

andybk said:

(would have replied sooner but been looking at uni's today for son)
I absolutly agree with @easyrams and @Global ovine above in general except the fact for robyns post regard not doing it with uk Suffolks , someone will have to do it at some point if the uk breed is to survive and that will be an uphill battle , unless uk suffolks roll over and accept NZ suff into society . It was not meant as a slight to nz genetics (most breeding and selection i full agree with ) it was more to the point some are using the NZ preface to sell uk bred rams as a halfway house which dilutes the heritage of the imported rams, if they are happy with that then fine .



seems we have a lot to thank Bakewell and his apprentice (ellman) for, even 300 years later (most of their initial work was completed in 30 years )
wonder how many of our fancy new recorded breeds will have such an impact the same going forward another 300 years .

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This reminds me I must get some good reading about RB.

Bury the Trash said:

This reminds me I must get some good reading about RB.

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pat stanleys book , "robert bakewell and longhorn breed of cattle is a must" , got loads books about him here, incredible breeder (farmer) of the time . and not a computer in sight lol , most interesting thing is nothing has changed still the same blinkered thinking amongst breeders and buyers , buying / breeding fat stylish sheep . being on a world market for genetics might break the chain in future . i wecome NZ genetics with open arms if only to educate the masses

andybk said:

pat stanleys book , "robert bakewell and longhorn breed of cattle is a must" , got loads books about him here, incredible breeder (farmer) of the time . and not a computer in sight lol , most interesting thing is nothing has changed still the same blinkered thinking amongst breeders and buyers , buying / breeding fat stylish sheep . being on a world market for genetics might break the chain in future . i wecome NZ genetics with open arms if only to educate the masses

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Do the masses want to be educated?

texas pete said:

Do the masses want to be educated?

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dont seem like it , you see the same people making the same mistakes every year , even me ! lol
it does seem like we are producing rams for this unattainable goal that is the shape of these trimmed out well fed show animals for the commercial market ,
my rams have always been smaller framed smaller headed than most and was uphill battle untill the beltex came in and people realised size is quite irrelevant to growth and carcass quality upto killing weight , likewise the NZ breeds are educating some farmers you can still have good carcass animals from lighter frames and that in-turn means less intervention at lambing , its a learning curve for all of us

NZDan said:

It's an awful photo isn't!!!

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No , Dont worry ..
.
.well actually..yeah ....from that angle he looks like he could be a bit over trimmed ..

...Plus, try a bloom dip

Bury the Trash said:

No , Dont worry ..
.
.well actually..yeah ....from that angle he looks like he could be a bit over trimmed ..

...Plus, try a bloom dip

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I've never understood bloom dip, we cull any sheep of any breed that doesn't have white wool, any bloom dipped sheep would be gone. Personally when I'm judging I'll always place bloom dipped sheep lower than un-dipped.
And in NZ show rings it is disqualification if the sheep has been trimmed, they must all be "closely and evenly shorn"

andybk said:

dont seem like it , you see the same people making the same mistakes every year , even me ! lol
it does seem like we are producing rams for this unattainable goal that is the shape of these trimmed out well fed show animals for the commercial market ,
my rams have always been smaller framed smaller headed than most and was uphill battle untill the beltex came in and people realised size is quite irrelevant to growth and carcass quality upto killing weight , likewise the NZ breeds are educating some farmers you can still have good carcass animals from lighter frames and that in-turn means less intervention at lambing , its a learning curve for all of us

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I can remember buying big bonny things when I first started out....I soon learnt.

Ram selling seems to be evolving in two parallel universes, has been for some time I suppose.

andybk said:

dont seem like it , you see the same people making the same mistakes every year , even me ! lol
it does seem like we are producing rams for this unattainable goal that is the shape of these trimmed out well fed show animals for the commercial market ,
my rams have always been smaller framed smaller headed than most and was uphill battle untill the beltex came in and people realised size is quite irrelevant to growth and carcass quality upto killing weight , likewise the NZ breeds are educating some farmers you can still have good carcass animals from lighter frames and that in-turn means less intervention at lambing , its a learning curve for all of us

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Although I agree with the sentiment, I’d question your use of the Beltex as an example of size being irrelevant to growth up to killing weight. As a breed, they are pitifully slow growing compared to a lot of (usually bigger) breeds used over the same ewes. There skeletal structure makes for a good grade on the EUROP grid, but not necessarily increased meat yield. I don’t have many (cull) pure Charollais that grade below an E grade, but those ones don’t look as good as the Beltexes, on the hoof at least.

I’d also question the ‘good carcass animals’ from NZ genetics too. Ime they are ‘adequate’ carcasses, but I don’t think anyone would suggest they compare on carcass grades to the better end of most uk terminal sire breeds. More functional than a lot......maybe.

andybk said:

. being on a world market for genetics might break the chain in future .

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There has been a healthy export market for UK genetics for a very long time indeed, in most farm animal species. There has always been strong demand, often prevented by our own government’s (NOT the EU!) slow pace in sorting export health certificates with some countries.?

For most of those markets, good ebvs have always been searched out, although some have also managed to export unrecorded genetics on the back of show results & type (Beltex to NZ being one example).

neilo said:

Although I agree with the sentiment, I’d question your use of the Beltex as an example of size being irrelevant to growth up to killing weight. As a breed, they are pitifully slow growing compared to a lot of (usually bigger) breeds used over the same ewes. There skeletal structure makes for a good grade on the EUROP grid, but not necessarily increased meat yield. I don’t have many (cull) pure Charollais that grade below an E grade, but those ones don’t look as good as the Beltexes, on the hoof at least.

I’d also question the ‘good carcass animals’ from NZ genetics too. Ime they are ‘adequate’ carcasses, but I don’t think anyone would suggest they compare on carcass grades to the better end of most uk terminal sire breeds. More functional than a lot......maybe.

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the theory before beltex was that small sheep didnt grow at all , ok beltex is slower growing pure , but on a suff mule do an ok job commercially whilst still on the ewe (supermarket spec) , similar nz suffs , if you can get them away off mum
before( late 70 / 80s) it had to be a huge well fed big boned suff and the charollais chased that dream as well , its when the rot set in think of Edinburgh suff set , thankfully we went as far down the line as them .
in the last 10- 15 years a lot of my commercial customers have been looking for different sheep , much more emphasis on good loins and gigots , less on size though length (not height) is still sought after .

neilo said:

There has been a healthy export market for UK genetics for a very long time indeed, in most farm animal species. There has always been strong demand, often prevented by our own government’s (NOT the EU!) slow pace in sorting export health certificates with some countries.?

For most of those markets, good ebvs have always been searched out, although some have also managed to export unrecorded genetics on the back of show results & type (Beltex to NZ being one example).

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not all of them on show results , lol

texas pete said:

Do the masses want to be educated?

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"The masses" in NZ largely didn't want to be educated prior to late in 1984 as their subsidies and tax breaks to develop more land and run more stock units was worth up to 40% of their income. This existed despite the embryonic stages of a few breeding groups breaking away from the traditionalist breed societies using science based on measured performance since the mid 1960s. Most farmers didn't get it until their business was threatened financially when these free lunches were removed overnight and prices crashed.
It is a fact that the mind becomes more active and thinking clearer when the stomach is empty. NZ farming proved that the harder the economic hit, the faster the rate of change.

Today breed societies in NZ are archaic organisations organising shrinking events that are considered by most as irrelevant. They no longer have any political clout in their industries and considered by the masses as "guardians of the status quo".

All land classes of the UK and Irish sheep industry has been suffering from reduced profitability for well over a decade now, despite consistently receiving the best prices per kilo in the sheep meat trading world. Industry support structures can't go on unless farmers are willing to eventually be state employees. Costs have to be sorted, as current systems no longer cut it. So much of sheep farming costs have a genetic base which has to be the challenge of the ram breeding sector. Until "the masses" realise this and reward breeders for producing animals requiring less work and more output, the status quo will persist. But isn't the Brexit economic shock yet to come???

The NZ experience clearly showed that the breed societies worked more as a handbrake, so market forces saw them as irrelevant and those breeders delivering the goods soon became the dominant strains and were mainly not registered to any society. Maybe the future lays with the "maverick" breeders in the UK too, than relying on the guardians of the status quo to change and just let market forces prevail.

andybk said:

the theory before beltex was that small sheep didnt grow at all , ok beltex is slower growing pure , but on a suff mule do an ok job commercially whilst still on the ewe (supermarket spec) , similar nz suffs , if you can get them away off mum
before( late 70 / 80s) it had to be a huge well fed big boned suff and the charollais chased that dream as well , its when the rot set in think of Edinburgh suff set , thankfully we went as far down the line as them .
in the last 10- 15 years a lot of my commercial customers have been looking for different sheep , much more emphasis on good loins and gigots , less on size though length (not height) is still sought after .

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My point on growth was that if you used most (generally bigger) terminal sires over those same Suffolk Mules, you would have faster growing lambs than by a Beltex. Keeping bigger ewes, with their higher maintenance costs, just to get the same growth rate from using slower growing ram genetics, is just crazy imo.

by the time we've finished talking tupping time will be over ......just go and buy one @Green farmer

spin cycle said:

by the time we've finished talking tupping time will be over ......just go and buy one @Green farmer

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then come back here next april / may and tell us how it all went

andybk said:

then come back here next april / may and tell us how it all went

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And again when the lambs are being sold.......

Green farmer said:

I’m quiet enjoying the rambling journey this thread is taking. I’m a now a lot more educated then before. But, having painstakingly weighted everything up, Im just not fully convinced the nz Suffolk is the best fit for my flock atm. ( every flock is different). Sorry lads !!!

Edit,
Just to expand further. When I looked at what I was hoping to achieve, even though the nz suffolk would tick a lot of boxes, it doesn’t necessarily tick any more then what a charolais would. Added to that there’s only 2 breeders in the whole country, meaning I wouldn’t have a great selection. Their also considerably more expensive then a charolais to buy. So for those reasons, I’ve opted for another Charolais. Its just hard to beat them for what I want. If I wanted to sell or keep replacements, then the decision could have went the other way. But I don’t. I just need something to get to slaughter weights and sell on the hook. So look, don’t want to offend any nz Suffolk breeders, but for my particular setup, charolais just tips it, slightly different farmer or setup, the pendulum could swing the other way. !!!!

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No offence taken from this distance @Green farmer, as I think the ensuing discussion over the 6 pages may have been educational to some. Best wishes.

neilo said:

I’d also question the ‘good carcass animals’ from NZ genetics too. Ime they are ‘adequate’ carcasses, but I don’t think anyone would suggest they compare on carcass grades to the better end of most uk terminal sire breeds. More functional than a lot......maybe.

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NZ Suffolks is a very broad term so I just thought that Forum members might find the 2 following PICS of our ram lambs of interest. Top one was taken in 2008 and the rams shown were born from our second importation of NZ Suffolk Embryos. Lower Pic is of pure NZ genetic Suffolks that we are producing now ( Photo taken this summer just gone). Lambs in both PICS were produced solely off grass. Big differences in 11 years in visual appearance and in scanning ( ultrasound and CT ) results while retaining small heads fine shoulders and big rumens. From our viewpoint today's EasySuffolks are much more saleable in UK market than the originals.
I just don't agree that our current rams can not compare to the better end of most UK terminal sire breeds. I accept they are not comparable to Beltex and indeed we have probably sold to less than 10 people over the last 12 year who use a Charolais so I would not comment on them either but certainly we and our clients believe we are now more than competitive with the major terminal breeds.