AB15 2 year legume fallow

I will attempt to address your points and put down as many observations I can think of from ab15 would appreciate your thoughts on my remarks.

What quantities of each option do you have or plan to have?
Probably would do about 120ha of AB15 or AB8 and maybe 60ha of extended overwinter stubble.
I’ve got about 23 ha of a AB15 and probably 3 ha of AB8. Like you are saying I think that the soil structure benefits immensely from both of these options in light of the dense rooting, mix of species, the perennial nature of the species, etc. Even on the blow away sand AB8 has turned the soil from tan to black... just hope i can keep it that way when it returns to cropping. Sand structures itself more slowly than clay I understand.

As you are saying thistles are major feature of the AB8 land. Especially in the lightest areas. Apparently you can spot spray but I’ll be there for quite a long time! I am not overly keen on this option compared to the AB15 because I see the ab15 as having more beneficial species mix for soil and a way of dealing with BG. But on the flip side AB8 needs less cutting - no BG in these sandy plots. How do you deal with bg in ab8?
In the AB8 that we have had so far there is some black-grass that appears in the first year, but after cutting very little seems to survive to seed, and then that seed never germinates in teh later years. I am not too worried about black-grass in this options. Thistles do have some environmental benefit, it's just when there's quite a lot of them and the seeds blow all over the nearby houses I feel quite bad about it. Spot spraying is a hopeless task as you say.

What do you mean about choosing types of ryegrass?
Late or intermediate ryegrass? I remember something about one setting seed earlier. @Great In Grass might remember.
Yes seeding RG is something to avoid i am sure. Strong patches of wild oats have appeared in a field but cut before seeding. Probably appear again this spring time.

I would not try to establish a winter crop straight after AB15 again. Mainly because from Aug it needed spraying off twice to kill the clover in particular. Plus after 5 cuts with wheels over much of the field leaves it tight, even with a light tractor and Flotations.
It's interesting that you don't see the seeding part of the soil in great condition. One of our agronomists sees a lot of farms doing things with grass, and he too says that the crops after it are never as good as he hopes given the deeper rooting effects on soil structure. I wonder whether you could tolerate some clover in the following winter cereal and then knock it out with a selective herbicide?

I was anticipating a much better WW crop after the legume mix then I got. It was in the 2017 Oct so conditions were getting sticky not great. The structure of the soil was seemingly better at depth than it was in the top 3 inches. 5 cuts with the 2.4m flail had left the surface a few inches compacted and tight, yet full of roots. Sticky conditions for loosening with the flat lift , probably smearing at depth. Things went cold and wet. Crows hammered one field of Ww leaving 20ac to redrill.

That said the following harvest in the same field did 4t/ac on 2nd Ww seed from the heap. Perhaps the residual roots and structure fromAB15 aided this.

The dry 2018 autumn made good establishment of AB15. Some flatlift, surface disking, roll, drill, roll, pellets. Great coverage which helps the poorer areas.
Did you drill the small seeds separately? Did you have much problem with slugs? I found the small seeds struggled in the bit we did before so I would need to think of a better strategy.

Blackgrass keeps wanting to head even in Aug. Progressively shorter stems. Difficulty to
Cut the bg in ruts. Four or five cuts. Have also done cuts just to stop the RG from dropping seed. I find it maybe will try to rehead but not more than once.
Could do with something wider than a 2.4 meter flail! What do you use?
That is slightly what turns me off the AB15 is the sheer number of cuts. I tried to keep cutting brome in field margins the other year. Thought I'd done enough and whilst I wasn't looking it seeded yet again. Also noticed the rut problem. I think with AB8 it's down for long enough that any seeding black-grass just can't make any headway in a semi-permanent grass field. Whether any seeding black-grass in the AB15 works the same way I'm not sure. What do you think?

We only have a 2.8m side-mower and a very old 3m flail mower. I think if we had this amount of grass we'd need a 6m mower to be able to cover the ground in a timely manner.


Apparently local livestock farmers like to take a cut of the AB15 bg and all ...but of course I don’t know anything about that! Nutritional value to cattle similar to wheat so they say.
We don't really have much local livestock demand for cut grass. I did wonder though whether on 120ha of AB8 that you can graze livestock for August and September. I wonder whether a livestock person would want to bring their stock over from somewhere else for this length of time.

The agreement runs out dec 20 will probably flatlift if poss then surface disk 2-3” for spring crop. Not ideal timing Will be interesting to see how it kills off.
What do you use to kill it? We used roundup plus kyleo
Would probably use the same if it's still around then!

Both options pay very well and I would struggle to match that with cash crop let alone a break crop on grade 3 clas To my mind we run a business so if something seems like it pays well with minimal risk and good for the soil then it’s time to fill your boots! I will be looking to expand the areas of both options when I apply this year for a new jan 2021 agreement.
The main risk we feel is the government being late in paying or refusing to allow grass to be pulled up at the end of the agreement. The latter being the main fear and why we have opted for stubble on the scheme that started last year.


Will look to ditch ab2 as it doesn’t allow for cover cropping and weeds can get big.
 
May just be my eyes, but I can't see a prohibition on fertilising, liming or moling on the ab15 crib sheet...

Interesting. I'm pretty sure they would say no fertiliser if asked, but the "Do not" list is not very long. In the guidance, which are not rules, it says: "The aim of this option is to provide an abundant supply of pollen and nectar-rich flowers, and this cannot be achieved if the option area is grazed, or if fertilisers and sprays are used. "

I would have thought low disturbance moling would be OK. They said we could do that in AB6 as long as it didn't disturb the stubble noticeably. We decided against in the end because we thought it would heave the ground too much. If our moling contractor offered lower rates out of season and would do it very carefully to retain the stubble, it might be worth reconsidering.
 

Cutlerstom

Member
Arable Farmer
Been looking at the AB15 option too. I've read on TFF several times that direct drilling wheat into a sprayed off grass crop isn't successful. Why is this? Alleopathy? or grass weed regrowth issues? I've heard beans is the best option, but I was hoping to avoid the slightly unreliable "spring barley-winterbean" 2 years of my rotation. Replacing it with a guaranteed net margin of around £380/ha seems good on paper, but then if you can't go into a 1st wheat after a 2year legume fallow building fertility it seems rather a waste. Also, is it in violation of NVZ if we don't plant an N hungry crop following a legume/grass Ley?
The other question I have is - does anyone know how much applied N you could reduce a following wheat crop after this option? (if you could get a wheat crop established!)
 

teslacoils

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
So, despite there being a grass element in this crop, it's actually much more clover than grass. Mine is coming in to year two, and I'd say it was looking like 75 percent clover, and would be easy to drill into, depending what you do with the greenery after August 15.

There is no implication in terms of nvz from not following it with a cereal. Main concern would be if following it with a pulse, just how your going to get any clovers out of it. Mine is going to be cut and baled after 15 August, sprayed off and a crop of westerwolds or similar stitching into it.

I highly doubt there will be much scope for n reduction.
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
I don't see why you shouldn't follow the option with wheat, though I've not looked at the dates. In 2 years there shouldn't have been much build up of leather jackets or wireworm. You'd want at least a month of dead grass before sowing the wheat to avoid frit fly transfer.
 

B'o'B

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Rutland
I pondered this, i couldn't see where for definite it said one way or another. TBH I had come down on the side of it being in the same fields... @Feldspar?
The choice is yours I think, but I think there is quite a big hint in the fact it’s called a 2-year fallow, not a 4-year. Its also classes as a rotational option. I am rotating it to get the benefits around the whole farm, although I have heard some people have repeated it in the same places.

The book does say:

“You must keep until 15 August in the second summer after sowing”

And:

“Return the option area to crop production
Spray the legume fallow mix with a non-selective herbicide if needed, before the area is cultivated for the next crop.

Return the area to the farm rotation from 15 August.”
 
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Flat 10

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Fen Edge
If you
The choice is yours I think, but I think there is quite a big hint in the fact it’s called a 2-year fallow, not a 4-year. Its also classes as a rotational option. I am rotating it to get the benefits around the whole farm, although I have heard some people have repeated it in the same places.

The book does say:

“You must keep until 15 August in the second summer after sowing”

And:

“Return the option area to crop production
Spray the legume fallow mix with a non-selective herbicide if needed, before the area is cultivated for the next crop.

Return the area to the farm rotation from 15 August.”
If you could rotate it why would they give you a year in arable in the middle?
 

B'o'B

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Rutland
If you

If you could rotate it why would they give you a year in arable in the middle?
They don’t!
You establish the first fallow 9 months after the agreement starts. So you get normal cropping in year 1. The fallow is then year 2&3. You then establish the other fallow area after taking a crop in year 3 so the fallow is year 4&5.
 

B'o'B

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Rutland
I see they have subtly changed the protocol for this option. Anyone know if newly agreed mid-tier schemes can be amended to the new requirements or are they now set at the protocol which was in force when I applied?
 
They don’t!
You establish the first fallow 9 months after the agreement starts. So you get normal cropping in year 1. The fallow is then year 2&3. You then establish the other fallow area after taking a crop in year 3 so the fallow is year 4&5.

This. Or at least this assuming the wording I saw a year or so ago. My understanding the second planting does not take place in the same fields as the first.
 

B'o'B

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Rutland
A few things, tweaks to open up the seed mixture options a bit, but the most interesting is the ability to top more than once in second year upto the 15 May.
 

B'o'B

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Rutland
This. Or at least this assuming the wording I saw a year or so ago. My understanding the second planting does not take place in the same fields as the first.
I think it is recommendation that the area returns to arable but not actually a requirement.
 
A few things, tweaks to open up the seed mixture options a bit, but the most interesting is the ability to top more than once in second year upto the 15 May.

I see for AB8 they now say you must take photos of each plot and not just if requested. A bit of extra work but not too bad. Overall they don't appear to have changed the fundamentals of the scheme, which is good. There was something though about funding being only guaranteed until 2023.

I also note that for AB9 they have increased the number of species that are required in the mix. And they want photos of them too, which wasn't a requirement before in response to farmers saying the requirements are too onerous.
 
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B'o'B

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Rutland

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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