"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

Kiwi Pete · Feb 9, 2020

DanM said:
Have you (or will you) put the mob on what you’ve just mowed, to trample it in, manure it and eat any choice bits?

No, I just gave the thistly bits a haircut after the mob had been through, it was all pretty well smooshed down by then (other than the thistles themselves)
Most of the difference is purely cosmetic, because they'd maybe eaten 85-90% of the buds off them, but perception and "the look" is semi-important to us as that paddock is the one people see from the street.

Many people out there hear "organic farming" and think "weed nursery" and so I would like to give an appearance of tidyness - without steamrolling my fields to achieve it, or burning a heap of fuel

The little paddock adjacent to it is an absolute mess, so it is a war I won't win.... they have sheep on it nearly all year around, so it is a carpet of spreading thistle.
TBH the areas of thistles in our 10 acre paddock is probably less than the area without thistles in their 10 acres! ?

Because the thistles tend to help conserve the grass around them by dissuading close grazing, there is more litter in those areas anyway, so they're helping in two ways.

Regrazing those areas would therefore be a bit counterproductive, it's still growing relatively fast thanks to the rain we had.

awkward · Feb 9, 2020

Kiwi Pete said:
Plant diversity effects on forage quality, yield and revenues of semi-natural grasslands - Nature Communications

Higher plant diversity in agricultural settings is often associated with lower biomass yield and with lower forage quality. Here, Schaub et al. show positive effects of plant diversity on biomass yield, quality-adjusted yield and revenues in semi-natural grassland across a range of management...

www.nature.com

A great project plenty of info coming from it.

holwellcourtfarm · Feb 9, 2020

Kiwi Pete said:
Plant diversity effects on forage quality, yield and revenues of semi-natural grasslands - Nature Communications

Higher plant diversity in agricultural settings is often associated with lower biomass yield and with lower forage quality. Here, Schaub et al. show positive effects of plant diversity on biomass yield, quality-adjusted yield and revenues in semi-natural grassland across a range of management...

www.nature.com

Interesting that the highest quality adjusted yield was not from the most intensively managed system.

Blaithin · Feb 9, 2020

There’s hope for my mediocrely intensive grazing

TexelBen · Feb 9, 2020

Kiwi Pete said:
It's probably worth remembering that a lot of the "new fashion species" are proper dryland plants, whereas a lot of the grasses we grow have been bred and selected for ball-tearing growth 'under ideal conditions'.

So if we plant a heap of plantain/chicory/red clover/sunflower in with our hypergrass, then management and plant recovery period will be wrong for something... because we can go dry over summer then I tend to visualise what's going to provide the best forage and groundcover going forward - and this changes per season!

I'd personally rather have the grass a little overcooked and look after the more expensive (and valuable) species looked after, better in the spring - because the soil will warm up and dry out, the grass will pretty much stop anyway.
Even tough old cocksfoot sulks, unless you have the confidence and fertility to let it get tall.

Now, around here most people just "open them up" over the spring and try to maximise stock intakes - make as much milk as possible, give the lambs 'a good start' but the issue then becomes a lack of stocking density/selective grazing habits - the stock manage the grazing.
As a result, by the time they really need their herbs and clover to be becoming dominant (summer) these tasty little plants have been grazed into the ground and they don't get the benefit of them.
What they're left with is what the stock didn't want to graze two months ago, and the mower comes out to cut it off - "reset"
But as @Farmer Roy pointed out to me, that's an expensive bandaid - every wheel is killing microbes, increasing bulk density (compaction) and mowing is not helpful to many species at all.
Topping appears cheaper than it actually is.
Grass tolerates it if you do it right, but it would prefer being tweaked by a grazing animal and sheared off at the right height, not whatever height the mower is set at.

I've taken advantage of the nice rainfall and mowed some thistles in full flower, now that moisture isn't going to limit us then we can afford to mow a few acres - but the big surprise is that the first plants to shoot away are the red/annual clovers and plantain plants that have just been sitting in the shade, waiting for their turn in the sun.

The bit where I said "if your soils are good" probably needs clarifying too.
Plantain is a south African species, for it to succeed in a dry, "unfertilised" soil biome then it needs a big root system before it builds a big leaf structure.
In a soil that's usually not moisture-limited, than has tonnes of excess nutrients in it, that big root system isn't as necessary - so it won't grow one unless you give it plenty of time.

The same probably holds true for grasses as well, but we don't notice it the same with grass being 'common' on the landscape.
Hence our "droughts" are only a few dry weeks away from being apparent?

We farm for leaves, not root systems, by default.

That's why I like the input from straight-shooting mates like Roy and Angie, they can put their finger on what I could do better very easily, whereas my neighbour cannot because we're doing better than them.
The joys of a diverse network!

I'm actively trying to get a better root system, if we get a decent summer the shake-arator will be out to some hard use, break that compaction up. The plantain fields have had horses on them for a long time before we took it over. I'm hoping to make it much better. It's noticibley wetter than our own in subsoiled, really old rough PP next door, so there's something going on. It had a nice dose of lime last year too ??

Kiwi Pete · Feb 9, 2020

holwellcourtfarm said:
Interesting that the highest quality adjusted yield was not from the most intensively managed system.

View attachment 857555

I guess it debunks the myths surrounding "my soils are yielding well so must be in good health" to a certain extent?
Health and output are different things, yield is much easier to ascertain than health of an ecosystem, especially the underground one

Kiwi Pete · Feb 10, 2020

Blaithin said:
There’s hope for my mediocrely intensive grazing

It probably provides the best overall outcomes; I remember discussing this at a discussion group a while ago, the general consensus there was that an operation like Harry Weir (the technograzing inventor guy) has incredible efficiency because he has B&W bulls at about 5/ha all doing about 1kg of gain per day

But

That also probably isn't quite as regenerative in terms of soil growth as being a bit more conservative, or running higher covers

As a result, the short-grass grazing and tall-grass grazing are much different things: if you haven't got much grass then it all must go through the stock, if you have an abundance then it allows for litter and diversity and habitat, as well as flexibility.

I sure wouldn't feel comfortable going back to really short covers again, it's much like tailgating as a habit

Kiwi Pete · Feb 10, 2020

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2487401354852619&id=1559001147692649

@Blaithin

ShooTa · Feb 10, 2020

sorry ive been a bit quiet- bout of manflu/lurgy.
had some flooding due to banks bursting upstream (our sections held.... just 4in in places) most has receeded only 24 done although rains still persisting so no idea about water holding capacity at this rate...
having done more thinking, and prodding with metal rods i am now very carefully thinking about some mechanical aeration in our larger fields which are part /were part of the flood plains to bust through compaction caused by standing water...
yes i could wait for the cows etc and plants to bust through but tbh impatiance is playing a role.

Poorbuthappy · Feb 11, 2020

Interesting latest 1 from Greg Judy. Wetter conditions.

He talks of castration at 12 months with banding. Is that just sticking on a rubber ring as we would at a week old? Obviously that's illegal here but was under the impression it was pretty risky too with older animals?

SilliamWhale · Feb 11, 2020

Kiwi Pete said:
It probably provides the best overall outcomes; I remember discussing this at a discussion group a while ago, the general consensus there was that an operation like Harry Weir (the technograzing inventor guy) has incredible efficiency because he has B&W bulls at about 5/ha all doing about 1kg of gain per day

But

That also probably isn't quite as regenerative in terms of soil growth as being a bit more conservative, or running higher covers

As a result, the short-grass grazing and tall-grass grazing are much different things: if you haven't got much grass then it all must go through the stock, if you have an abundance then it allows for litter and diversity and habitat, as well as flexibility.

I sure wouldn't feel comfortable going back to really short covers again, it's much like tailgating as a habit

Was Harry Weir needing to reseed and apply fert?

Blaithin · Feb 11, 2020

Poorbuthappy said:
Interesting latest 1 from Greg Judy. Wetter conditions.

He talks of castration at 12 months with banding. Is that just sticking on a rubber ring as we would at a week old? Obviously that's illegal here but was under the impression it was pretty risky too with older animals?

Bands are beyond a rubber ring at that stage. Usually a piece of elastic with a metal clip.

It has higher risk of tetanus and even clostridium plus just increased infection risk. The animal doesn’t take it nearly as well and some studies have shown quite a long period of weight gain stagnation after banding.

Have to say it’s disappointing seeing a big name promoting such a practice. Most animal husbandry laws are pushing for younger and younger castration. Here I believe they have to be under 9 months for the farmers to do it now. They gave us a schedule where it gradually creeps down. And pretty much any farmer will tell your it’s just plain easier on people and animals to do with under a week old with the Cheerios.

Poorbuthappy · Feb 11, 2020

Blaithin said:
Bands are beyond a rubber ring at that stage. Usually a piece of elastic with a metal clip.

It has higher risk of tetanus and even clostridium plus just increased infection risk. The animal doesn’t take it nearly as well and some studies have shown quite a long period of weight gain stagnation after banding.

Have to say it’s disappointing seeing a big name promoting such a practice. Most animal husbandry laws are pushing for younger and younger castration. Here I believe they have to be under 9 months for the farmers to do it now. They gave us a schedule where it gradually creeps down. And pretty much any farmer will tell your it’s just plain easier on people and animals to do with under a week old with the Cheerios.

How many people have you done with bands???
Glad I'm the other side the pond from you?

In all seriousness tho, I agree I was surprised to hear him say it and was interested in a view from your side the water.
We would pay to have them cut by a vet here once over 3 months.
Rings up to 7 days.
Burdizzos up to 3 months I think.

SilliamWhale · Feb 11, 2020

Karliboy said:
The herdwick hogget came out top with about 60% then the Shropshire mutton with the other 40% no votes at all for the lamb.
I was very surprised by this.
Trouble is where would you go to buy hogget or mutton these days without special requests as supermarkets only do lamb and so do most butchers.

A local butcher farm shop local to me does half a mutton for £60. Its lovely. Its not sheepy at all its just flavoursome lamb. Good value too

Also does Dexter beef boxes which I havent tried but will get next time I go up

Crofter64 · Feb 11, 2020

Blaithin said:
Bands are beyond a rubber ring at that stage. Usually a piece of elastic with a metal clip.

It has higher risk of tetanus and even clostridium plus just increased infection risk. The animal doesn’t take it nearly as well and some studies have shown quite a long period of weight gain stagnation after banding.

Have to say it’s disappointing seeing a big name promoting such a practice. Most animal husbandry laws are pushing for younger and younger castration. Here I believe they have to be under 9 months for the farmers to do it now. They gave us a schedule where it gradually creeps down. And pretty much any farmer will tell your it’s just plain easier on people and animals to do with under a week old with the Cheerios.

The problem with under 7 days is that they haven’t always descended by then. i wait a bit and do it around 4 weeks but have ringed at 4 months. I prefer to ring when the days cool and there are fewer flies.

Blaithin · Feb 11, 2020

Crofter64 said:
The problem with under 7 days is that they haven’t always descended by then. i wait a bit and do it around 4 weeks but have ringed at 4 months. I prefer to ring when the days cool and there are fewer flies.

Of all the calves we’ve banded in the last 20 years at under a week old - usually a day old - and I can probably count the ones that only had one accessible testicle on one hand. Since we didn’t go back and check in the fall for all I know they could have been true cryptorchids. Some are extra tiny and hard to get to stay down while you tighten the band, they like to squirt back up. But actual testicles stuck up.... next to none.

I have a much easier time doing it when they’re standing vs flipping them over.

Kiwi Pete · Feb 11, 2020

SilliamWhale said:
Was Harry Weir needing to reseed and apply fert?

Not reseed, that I'm aware of, but he does use fert.

What I'd consider to be 'moderate use', not hundreds of units but certainly more than average for beef farms around here (which use very little)

Kiwi Pete · Feb 11, 2020

Blaithin said:
Bands are beyond a rubber ring at that stage. Usually a piece of elastic with a metal clip.

It has higher risk of tetanus and even clostridium plus just increased infection risk. The animal doesn’t take it nearly as well and some studies have shown quite a long period of weight gain stagnation after banding.

Have to say it’s disappointing seeing a big name promoting such a practice. Most animal husbandry laws are pushing for younger and younger castration. Here I believe they have to be under 9 months for the farmers to do it now. They gave us a schedule where it gradually creeps down. And pretty much any farmer will tell your it’s just plain easier on people and animals to do with under a week old with the Cheerios.

It's probably "better" to just jab them and cut them, the old-fashioned way, than use bands at all - some of the worst outcomes I've seen with calf castration were due to bands breaking and "compartment syndrome" killing the calves with blood poisoning.

We used to cut the calves at home at around 14-15 months of age, so they'd be well healed by sale time and likely have added their genes to the pool as well if they were any good

I didn't mind it, as it meant a day or two off school for me, and the result was pretty good as well - calves a good deal heavier than they would have been if castrated at a week of age

Kiwi Pete · Feb 12, 2020

Received the invoice for the seed today, the top mix is for 15ha and the bottom one is for 2ha (to save y'all looking, the second one is missing lupins and has an extra kilo of buckwheat in place)

Thought it may be interesting, even only as a rough guide as to relative seed costs, and rates.

I certainly wouldn't advise everyone to sow at these high rates, 73kg/ha is high for a covercrop, 50kg would be plenty but:

Not sure how effective the spray would be
Lots of birds here (LOTS)
Uncertain of adequate rainfall (we got lucky there)
Slugs, springtails etc
Average to low fertility

Henarar · Feb 12, 2020

Kiwi Pete said:
View attachment 858039
Received the invoice for the seed today, the top mix is for 15ha and the bottom one is for 2ha (to save y'all looking, the second one is missing lupins and has an extra kilo of buckwheat in place)

Thought it may be interesting, even only as a rough guide as to relative seed costs, and rates.

I certainly wouldn't advise everyone to sow at these high rates, 73kg/ha is high for a covercrop, 50kg would be plenty but:

Not sure how effective the spray would be
Lots of birds here (LOTS)
Uncertain of adequate rainfall (we got lucky there)
Slugs, springtails etc
Average to low fertility

how much per acre is that ? how long do you think it will last ?

"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

0 %

Up to 25%

25-50%

50-75%

75-100%

100% I’ve had enough of farming!

Share this page