Joint ill lambs

Nithsdale · Apr 2, 2020

primmiemoo said:
Complete pita, isn't it.

We'd talked through these episodes of mastitis when the vet did the FABBL health check, and it was felt that flies were implicated in later lambers, given that these are a time after turnout. Were going to apply a repellent to the later lambers, but this early batch is puzzling. That's allowing for cases with a ewe that's had low BCS throughout, and cases where turnout was delayed because of the storms, or because a Char ram is getting thin skinned lambs. Expected problems there.

Awwlways zummen wai sheep

Mastitis now can be caused by the below average temps, or the fact there's more mud about after the very wet (and mild) winter meaning lots of bacteria getting everywhere...

Or the ewe has an underlying issue from last year which went undetected.

One of my first ewes to lamb had a buggered bag. Its bloody frustrating after checking them all last autumn and then carrying them (and their lambs) all winter for her to be unviable at birth... but sadly that's the way it goes sometimes.

primmiemoo · Apr 2, 2020

Nithsdale Farmer said:
Mastitis now can be caused by the below average temps, or the fact there's more mud about after the very wet (and mild) winter meaning lots of bacteria getting everywhere...

Or the ewe has an underlying issue from last year which went undetected.

One of my first ewes to lamb had a buggered bag. Its bloody frustrating after checking them all last autumn and then carrying them (and their lambs) all winter for her to be unviable at birth... but sadly that's the way it goes sometimes.

It could, just could, have been the warm spell in still muddyish conditions that brought about one case, but these are ewes milking well and lambs doing well.

Roll on that vaccine that I was so excited to hear about last year!

puppet · Apr 2, 2020

Jerry said:
It’s off label but ok for sheep. Just record it in the book.

If you are using any product off label, antibiotics or pesticides, Animal Health and Trading Standards will jump on you. Automatic Single Farm Payment penalty (in my experience when my agronomist and spray contractor used the wrong stuff then disappeared over the horizon leaving me to take the hit. OK for winter but not spring wheat apparently)

Jerry · Apr 2, 2020

puppet said:
If you are using any product off label, antibiotics or pesticides, Animal Health and Trading Standards will jump on you. Automatic Single Farm Payment penalty (in my experience when my agronomist and spray contractor used the wrong stuff then disappeared over the horizon leaving me to take the hit. OK for winter but not spring wheat apparently)

On the vets script it clearly mentions sheep, both dose and withdrawal. Therefore as prescribed it is fine is my understanding.

muleman · Apr 2, 2020

Usually have trouble but have hardly had one this time, gave every lamb 1 ml penstrep as soon as poss after birth, that will sort it, definitely the way to go.

primmiemoo · Apr 2, 2020

puppet said:
If you are using any product off label, antibiotics or pesticides, Animal Health and Trading Standards will jump on you. Automatic Single Farm Payment penalty (in my experience when my agronomist and spray contractor used the wrong stuff then disappeared over the horizon leaving me to take the hit. OK for winter but not spring wheat apparently)

Had a look at the label on Zantrac prescribed for ewes which clearly says cattle and sheep, plus withdrawal.

puppet · Apr 2, 2020

muleman said:
Usually have trouble but have hardly had one this time, gave every lamb 1 ml penstrep as soon as poss after birth, that will sort it, definitely the way to go.

. Sorry, I hope that is not the case. Blanket antibiotics are simply wrong. At some point your own pneumonia will not respond to it, nor any of your children. Big price to pay to prevent some joint ill

muleman · Apr 2, 2020

puppet said:
. Sorry, I hope that is not the case. Blanket antibiotics are simply wrong. At some point your own pneumonia will not respond to it, nor any of your children. Big price to pay to prevent some joint ill

???well i can only speak as i find, i appreciate every farm is different but it my case it definitely was the right thing to do...you reckon up the expense and time in medicine and catching lambs for 4 or 5 days to inject and then 50% dont respond, bovine said they had to be put down when ge was on here) and it was well worth it plus it would cover a few other bugs apart from joint ill.

johnflimston · Apr 2, 2020

Kip said:
Anyone having more than usual in their lambs? Feel like It’s never ending at the moment, must be jabbing at least 15 -20 every day out of about 650 lambs. Using betamox and metacam at the moment anyone anything better I can try? Thanks

Vet recommends Pen and Strep but I told her that I cant catch them on day three or 4. She said give Pen and Strep day one (it's the Strep that's important) then Betamox LA day 2.
If they are inside or your quicker than me Pen and Strep for 3-4 days is best and cheapest.

johnflimston · Apr 2, 2020

matthew said:
Thanks. It's very good for soft tissue problems in sheep, and do use it. But at my RUMA lecture in november the vet said use it, but don't record it, as if off licence the animals can't go into the food chain. Ever.
The triumph of paperwork again.

Zactran is licenced for sheep. Drugs that are not licenced can be used if prescribe ed by vet but have 28 day withdrawal.

johnflimston · Apr 2, 2020

muleman said:
[emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]well i can only speak as i find, i appreciate every farm is different but it my case it definitely was the right thing to do...you reckon up the expense and time in medicine and catching lambs for 4 or 5 days to inject and then 50% dont respond, bovine said they had to be put down when ge was on here) and it was well worth it plus it would cover a few other bugs apart from joint ill.

One thing is sure, Bovine didn't recommend jabbing every lamb with antibiotics.

muleman · Apr 2, 2020

johnflimston said:
One thing is sure, Bovine didn't recommend jabbing every lamb with antibiotics.

No he definitely didnt but he definitely said those with joint ill had to be put down so surely better to prevent the joint ill.

shearerlad · Apr 3, 2020

I’m about a third lambed and still getting issues with joint ill. Currently treating eight lambs with Nuflor and Loxicom. I know it’s not a big percentage of lambs but very frustrating

Making a huge effort on hygiene, every mothering pen is dosed with Biosuper powder and well bedded with good barley straw. Navels double iodined and then given a squirt of Engimycin spray at turnout at 36-48hours old.

Not sure what else I can do, don’t want to go down the blanket treatment route

Frank-the-Wool · Apr 3, 2020

muleman said:
???well i can only speak as i find, i appreciate every farm is different but it my case it definitely was the right thing to do...you reckon up the expense and time in medicine and catching lambs for 4 or 5 days to inject and then 50% dont respond, bovine said they had to be put down when ge was on here) and it was well worth it plus it would cover a few other bugs apart from joint ill.

Did your Vet recommend this course of action?
It is a highly dubious method and will be hiding an underlying cause in your stock or management.

Anyone blanket treating any stock with anti microbials as a preventative measure need to stop as these products are so important for human health.

muleman · Apr 3, 2020

shearerlad said:
I’m about a third lambed and still getting issues with joint ill. Currently treating eight lambs with Nuflor and Loxicom. I know it’s not a big percentage of lambs but very frustrating

Making a huge effort on hygiene, every mothering pen is dosed with Biosuper powder and well bedded with good barley straw. Navels double iodined and then given a squirt of Engimycin spray at turnout at 36-48hours old.

Not sure what else I can do, don’t want to go down the blanket treatment route

Ive found it doesnt matter what you do, lamb inside or out, treat navels or dont some will always get joint ill, not sure its that much to do with navels to be honest, had heard its maybe bugs that go down the throat that cause it , very frustrating as you say cos you get the ewes turned away with 2 good lambs and think all is well then a week to 10 days later it starts!

Nithsdale · Apr 3, 2020

Was catching up with a friend last night, joint ill was mentioned and he sent this through...

He swears by it - "cure them or kill them".

But it is £80 a bottle.

primmiemoo · Apr 3, 2020

But the manufacturer didn't go to full lengths of licensing it for sheep. I'm increasingly fed up with sheepism when it comes to treatments.

Nithsdale · Apr 3, 2020

primmiemoo said:
But the manufacturer didn't go to full lengths of licensing it for sheep. I'm increasingly fed up with sheepism when it comes to treatments.

His vet gave him it to treat joint ill in lambs ?‍

Guleesh · Apr 3, 2020

We only experienced 1 bad year for joint ill, outside lambing with lambing field pretty dirty and very wet, since then just moved ewes more often so they' re not lying in three weeks worth of sh!t and have only seen the odd case last few years. the year we had it we just jabbed them with Ultrapen LA as soon as we saw a slight limp and nearly all recovered. We only had about 80 lambs back then so admittedly it was easy to spot them early. Most lambs born that year were texel cross and that tup didn't live long enough to see his offspring.

I'm thinking a lower immunity was a trait passed from the tup tbh, and unluckily wet dirty conditions were perfect to spread it around.
Surely most conditions that can afflict a sheep/lamb are ultimately caused by inadequate immune response? - so heritable trait?

The idea of attempting to provide near sterile conditions to limit bacteria intake or using blanket antibiotics at birth don't seem like good ways to move forward to me...
but i'm no expert.

livestock 1 · Apr 3, 2020

That’s my experience too. Cold wet weather lambs lying wet causes it. I remember as a youngster the vet giving my father some bottles of Vitenium injection (vitamin e and selenium) one year when we had a serious amount of stiff lambs on a cold year. It did the trick alongside the antibiotic. He went to town with the Vitenium and I think he was giving everything a dose. He nearly had a fit when the bill came!

Joint ill lambs

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