Border collie eyesight

Guleesh · Apr 8, 2020

How close do sheep need to be before your dog sees them? Reason I ask is I'm regularly sending my dog around 500m away to sweep sheep across a hill and it seems to me he isn't seeing them until he's around 300m away from them (measured from satellite images)
I'm worried his eyesight isn't as good as it should be but not sure what's normal, the other dogs I had always worked closer at hand.

Qman · Apr 8, 2020

Spartacus · Apr 8, 2020

Have heard it said that dogs cant see very well at all and do it mostly on smell rather than sight, I dont believe it myself as I've seen dogs spot sheep 1000 yards away no problem. Some dogs are naturally very good at spotting sheep and others arent though, so a lot depends on the dog, so long as it isnt missing them altogether it shouldnt be a problem? How old is it?

Guleesh · Apr 8, 2020

Spartacus said:
Have heard it said that dogs cant see very well at all and do it mostly on smell rather than sight, I dont believe it myself as I've seen dogs spot sheep 1000 yards away no problem. Some dogs are naturally very good at spotting sheep and others arent though, so a lot depends on the dog, so long as it isnt missing them altogether it shouldnt be a problem? How old is it?

2 and 1/2 years old, I have a job getting himto head out in the right direction, he keeps stopping, looking around then back to me for assurance so I keep sending him. Once he's at around 300m away from the sheep he 'locks on' and goes the whole way without further command

dogjon · Apr 8, 2020

You need to remember that your optics platform is about 5' higher than the dogs. See how well you can see the sheep if you get down to the dog's eye level.

Guleesh · Apr 8, 2020

dogjon said:
You need to remember that your optics platform is about 5' higher than the dogs. See how well you can see the sheep if you get down to the dog's eye level.

I send him from a point looking across a shallow valley to the sheep on the far face, and the hill was burned last year so no heather, He definitely has clear line of sight the whole way.

Dry Rot · Apr 8, 2020

Take him to the vet. There are various ailments that affect the eye sight of dogs and a test shouldn't take too long so worth getting done.

HarryB97 · Apr 8, 2020

Some dogs have a lot more 'eye' than others they are all individuals. My dog doesn't seam to take lots in compared to other dogs despite being a reasonable gatherer but is great in the pen, all swings and roundabouts cant have it all.

Guleesh · Apr 8, 2020

HarryB97 said:
Some dogs have a lot more 'eye' than others they are all individuals. My dog doesn't seam to take lots in compared to other dogs despite being a reasonable gatherer but is great in the pen, all swings and roundabouts cant have it all.

I think he's the smartest dog we've had and I was thinking of breeding from him someday when he gets too slow to work if it's common enough for them not to see at distance i'm happy, but wanted to know what was normal as I don't think id take pups from him if he wasn't seeing quite right.

Spartacus · Apr 8, 2020

Guleesh said:
2 and 1/2 years old, I have a job getting himto head out in the right direction, he keeps stopping, looking around then back to me for assurance so I keep sending him. Once he's at around 300m away from the sheep he 'locks on' and goes the whole way without further command

Could just be a confidence issue, did you train him or buy him recently?

Spartacus · Apr 8, 2020

Also, do you know his parents? And have they had any tests that you know of?

dogjon · Apr 8, 2020

If you are thinking about breeding from him you should definitely have him checked for PRA. Also there is a dna test for CEA now. I do a lot of "blind" outruns here and one of the things I do from the beginning with young dogs is to take care with how I set them up for an outrun. If they are going to be going something like 500 yds, I'll set them up 30' or 40' away from me. If they are going half that distance set them up half way closer to you. If they are just going for a group up close set them up at foot so they know they're not gathering the whole field. This seems to naturally make sense to dogs and if you are consistent they will soon learn to take the cue on distance from you.

Guleesh · Apr 8, 2020

Spartacus said:
Could just be a confidence issue, did you train him or buy him recently?

He's homebred from our own dog and bitch, he was the least confident in his litter and is quite nervy but comes out of that when he's working,

Guleesh · Apr 8, 2020

dogjon said:
If you are thinking about breeding from him you should definitely have him checked for PRA. Also there is a dna test for CEA now. I do a lot of "blind" outruns here and one of the things I do from the beginning with young dogs is to take care with how I set them up for an outrun. If they are going to be going something like 500 yds, I'll set them up 30' or 40' away from me. If they are going half that distance set them up half way closer to you. If they are just going for a group up close set them up at foot so they know they're not gathering the whole field. This seems to naturally make sense to dogs and if you are consistent they will soon learn to take the cue on distance from you.

Thanks good info
How do you direct/correct them if they're going off at a tangent?

Spartacus · Apr 8, 2020

Guleesh said:
He's homebred from our own dog and bitch, he was the least confident in his litter and is quite nervy but comes out of that when he's working,

So the parents hadnt had any kind of DNA tests or vet eye examination?

Guleesh · Apr 8, 2020

Spartacus said:
So the parents hadnt had any kind of DNA tests or vet eye examination?

No and I very much doubt their parents or grandparents did either.

Spartacus · Apr 8, 2020

Guleesh said:
No and I very much doubt their parents or grandparents did either.

Right then, as @dogjon says there are a couple of things it could be, I would think at 2 and 1/2 PRA is unlikely (the P stands for progressive so it gets worse as time goes on). As well as that PRA is also linked to diet, so as long as you had him on a good compound food as a pup it is even more unlikely. The other possibility is CEA, it is fairly rare with dogs in the ISDS registry now ad they have to be DNA tested for it before breeding. In the 6000 odd pups registered a year there was (before DNA testing became compulsary) 2% affected and around 25% carriers. Of the 2% affected 1% of those will be born either blind or virtually blind, then from there there will be varying degrees of sight up to the least affected that could see perfectly fine.

Obviously it could be neither of those but it might be an idea to get him DNA tested before breeding him just to make sure it isnt CEA (there isnt a test for PRA that I know of).

dogjon · Apr 8, 2020

Guleesh said:
Thanks good info
How do you direct/correct them if they're going off at a tangent?

Kind of hard to explain in a paragraph. If they are running too tight, initially you'll have to stop them, probably call them into you a bit while you walk out to the side you're wanting them to widen out to then give them another flank to get them wider. Soon you should be able to just stop them and give them the redirect without calling them in and hopefully you will be able to get them to cast out on the fly. A dog taking a cast out on the fly is a beautiful thing to my eye and it always kind of irritated me that the ISDS trial rules require a point deduction for any redirects given on the outrun. To my way of thinking a dog that will take a cast out on the fly might be more useful that the lucky dog who guessed right. I think someone told me that Alasdair MacRae had a good video on turnouts but I havent seen it.

If they are running too wide you'll need to stop them, call them into you (without walking out to the side) then give them a flank when they have come in. I can tell my dogs to "come in" verbally on the fly but I've never figured out how to do it on a whistle. I'm sure it's been done though.

Just another note on the vision thing. Canines are coursarial hunters. They are good at seeing movement but not so good at seeing things that arent moving and have poor peripheral vision. Explains why we were able to walk up so close to foxes when I was a kid.

Guleesh · Apr 8, 2020

Thankyou, Once things are back to normal i think I will get him to the vet and get the test, I do think he should be able to see a little further than he can.

Spartacus · Apr 8, 2020

Guleesh said:
Thankyou, Once things are back to normal i think I will get him to the vet and get the test, I do think he should be able to see a little further than he can.

Dont completely discount the idea it could be a confidence issuez I sold one a couple of years ago, on sheep fantastic, but out running it would know exactly where I wanted it to go but it would go steady or stop and look back at me a bit, when it was on song it was great, just it had the outrun issue so I sold it, ended up on shetland with the girls off this farming life.

Border collie eyesight

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