Monumental Neglect Of Duty

Ashtree

Member
Perhaps, just perhaps, the wide scale culling of experienced ministers from Cabinet by Boris Cummings, and their replacement by inexperienced relative youngsters and loyal Brexiteers, solely in order to create a mere rubber stamp for the new order by decree, set the scene for what was to follow.
Certainly, nobody in cabinet had the experience, seniority or pure balls / confidence to challenge the direction of travel.
No doubt also, the atmosphere of fear engendered by Cummings, around government and the civil service further led to wise heads, choosing to keep their heads down.
 
I can refute most of the facts including linking to Scientific papers but no one wants to hear the ramblings of a supposed 'conspiracy theorist'.

But if you want a flavour listen to Professor Johan Giesecke, one of the world’s senior epidemiologists, advisor to the Swedish Government, the first Chief Scientist of the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, and an advisor to the director general of the WHO, who lays out with typically Swedish bluntness why he thinks:

- UK policy on lockdown and other European countries are not evidence-based
- The correct policy is to protect the old and the frail only -
- The Imperial College paper was “not very good” and he has never seen an unpublished paper have so much policy impact
- Any such models are a dubious basis for public policy anyway
- The flattening of the curve is due to the most vulnerable dying first as much as the lockdown
- The results will eventually be similar for all countries
- Covid-19 is a “mild disease” and similar to the flu, and it was the novelty of the disease that scared people.
- At least 50% of the population of both the UK and Sweden will be shown to have already had the disease when mass antibody testing becomes available


Sweden is not coming through this at all well. Here is a post I made on the "Italy Shutdown" thread yesterday:

A comparison could be made with Portugal. Same population (a bit over 10m) and although Sweden is about four and a half times the area, both have large tracts fairly well unoccupied by humans and a fair number each of large centres of population. I saw a report a while ago that it is estimated just over half of Sweden's households are single person. Figures are as up to the minute as I can find.

I think the worst figure (deaths) is the one to which most people first turn. Portugal 657 Sweden over 1400. Total cases P 19022, S 13216. In ICU P 222, S 523 (described as "critical"). Recovered P 519, S 550. Sweden's death rate of those infected is much higher than neighbouring countries too.
...................................................

Portugal has followed a similar restriction of movement to the UK. I know I would rather be here than in Sweden.
 
Sweden is not coming through this at all well. Here is a post I made on the "Italy Shutdown" thread yesterday:

A comparison could be made with Portugal. Same population (a bit over 10m) and although Sweden is about four and a half times the area, both have large tracts fairly well unoccupied by humans and a fair number each of large centres of population. I saw a report a while ago that it is estimated just over half of Sweden's households are single person. Figures are as up to the minute as I can find.

I think the worst figure (deaths) is the one to which most people first turn. Portugal 657 Sweden over 1400. Total cases P 19022, S 13216. In ICU P 222, S 523 (described as "critical"). Recovered P 519, S 550. Sweden's death rate of those infected is much higher than neighbouring countries too.
...................................................

Portugal has followed a similar restriction of movement to the UK. I know I would rather be here than in Sweden.
What are care homes like in Portugal? Watching the video posted on the previous page, the Swedish epidemiologist says that the elderly in Swedish care homes have been more exposed because the care homes are larger (sometimes with hundreds of people); they should have been locked down as soon as cases appeared to be transmitted within Sweden; and Swedish care homes are often staffed by people for whom Swedish is not their first language if they speak much of it at all.

I don't think you can just compare numbers without understanding underlying circumstances, which is why I've given up looking at the statistics.
 

Nithsdale

Member
Livestock Farmer
Why does everyone choose to jump up and down about planes and almost, solely blame them?
I can’t imagine there was much air travel in 1919/20 and yet Spanish Flu managed just fine.


It's the Airports.


Can I use the analogy of Longtown Market and the 2001 F&M crisis.
Nasty disease. Livestock infected but not showing symptoms were unknowingly put through the market. The other animals there all contract the disease and, still unknowingly, were shipped to every corner of the country. Spreading it far and wide.




But instead of sheep being moved around country... its humans going to every corner of the planet







Really, the UK govt has had lessons on controlling contagious disease/virus in very recent times. It's a shame nothing was learned.
 

Two Tone

Member
Mixed Farmer
It’s a long read, but essential nonetheless. Really, if ever there was a need for a second coming of “led by donkeys”, the time is now.

Welcome back @Ashtree.
What is the situation in Ireland?
Can we take the pee out of your Politicians in the same way as you love to do to ours?

Does Ireland also have idiots in its media who like to trip up their Political leaders in some vain attempt to hide their own stupidity in a oneupmanship point-scoring competition for arsholes?

Some people are clever enough to see through all this crap. It seems that others aren’t..............!
All they want to do is to show how “clever” they are at continuing to stir it.
 

Jackov Altraids

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
Or falling between two stools?

The government had time to examine what South Korea was doing - testing, locking down etc but for whatever reason chose not to get on to a “war footing” until it was almost too late. IF they had immediately clamped down on international travel they may have stood some chance of containment but of course they didn’t and are in fact one of the few countries still allowing daily flights from hotspots nevermind the massive increase in private jet flights in to the country from Russia and the Arab states


I understand the argument for taking little/ no action and the argument for a complete lockdown. I don't know which will be shown to be right but I like the fact we shouldn't get it completely wrong and are in a position to move either way.
People with private jets do not mix, in any shape or form, with the Hoi polloi. Is it a bad thing if they choose to spread it amongst themselves?
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
Why does everyone choose to jump up and down about planes and almost, solely blame them?
I can’t imagine there was much air travel in 1919/20 and yet Spanish Flu managed just fine.
Because they and the airports were the perfect mechanism for rapid global spread of the virus. Rapid importation of infected passengers overwhelmed initial efforts at testing, contact tracing and containment very rapidly both here and elsewhere.
The only countries getting numbers down significantly are those who have limited or quarantined incoming passengers. China has discovered this but again we learn nothing. There have been no such measures here and there are no such measures now. It’s pure neglect IMO. Doesn’t have to draconian. Still come here but 2 weeks enforced quarantine. They used to call it management.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
After the ridicule here of Spain and Italy, and their perceived poor handling of this virus... the UK is on course for the highest death tally in all of Europe.

Our govt was the one slow to react.
Our govt is the one not to shut down its borders or airports.

Think about that for a second.

Its not like we are the first govt/nation to experience this pandemic - we had the luxury of witnessing other countries first and following suit. But no, the man in charge failed. Boris - he is the one who calls the shots. He played this down and effectively buried his head in the sand...
and now, evidence from USA saying, ventilators are not helping, the survival rate of those on ventilators is rather low, as I said earlier, this virus is completely new, nobody has really got to grips with it, yet. They will do, or at least we hope they do, but at the moment, nobody really knows the best way to handle it. Lock down, the current solution, has a fatal flaw, through testing in other parts of the world, assuming they used a reliable test, has shown it to be widely distributed through populations, so, as soon as you 'open' up, it spreads again, and there is doubt, that once you have had, you are immune. I think 'lockdown' as a means of controlling it, will after a (if) vaccine is produced, turn out to be not the best of decisions, financially, it will have done horrendous damage to economies, and that will have to be addressed. It may well be, that money is simply not available, to keep the NHS anywhere near proper funding, and the whole social service sector, may well be left in a worse position.
It is very easy, to point the finger, and say, so and so are the culprits, but all they can do, is listen to the advice, of their medical professionals, and hope they are right. It is not that they know, they are not medical experts, and we were certainly not the last country to lockdown. It will be interesting to see what happens, in those countries that are going to relax the lockdown, mainly for a desperate need to restart their economies, and if, but hopefully not, it all flares up again, lockdown, will have done more damage, than good. People, can only come second, after the economy, not first, as many would like to think, simply because, if the economy is f#####d, there would be no money to look after the sick/aged/unemployed etc.
It will only be seen, post c19, the way it should have been handled, and only then. Because it is a completely new virus, science is only just beginning to understand it, and until they fully understand it, and a vaccine is produced, we will have to learn to live with it, and that will be a year, or more, before it is readily available, you cannot lock a nation down, for that length of time, it is impossible. What will probably happen, is the elderly/vulnerable sections of society, will have to isolate, social distancing, masks etc will be normal. But, can they stop the football league, cricketing season, horse racing, or, for us normal markets ? the answer, is no, people will not allow that.
So, nithsdale farmer, the correct time to point the finger, is afterwards, when the facts are truly known, not a random selection of 'wannabees' spouting forth, their own agenda. Everybody should be working together.
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
I agree we are where we are today and recriminations do no good but I do have the gut feeling that the leadership have made a hash of this. Far too slow off the mark and too timid or ignorant to make bigger decisions early enough which would have saved massive problems now. Very disappointed. But I kind of expected it. They are politicians.
 

Nithsdale

Member
Livestock Farmer
and now, evidence from USA saying, ventilators are not helping, the survival rate of those on ventilators is rather low, as I said earlier, this virus is completely new, nobody has really got to grips with it, yet. They will do, or at least we hope they do, but at the moment, nobody really knows the best way to handle it. Lock down, the current solution, has a fatal flaw, through testing in other parts of the world, assuming they used a reliable test, has shown it to be widely distributed through populations, so, as soon as you 'open' up, it spreads again, and there is doubt, that once you have had, you are immune. I think 'lockdown' as a means of controlling it, will after a (if) vaccine is produced, turn out to be not the best of decisions, financially, it will have done horrendous damage to economies, and that will have to be addressed. It may well be, that money is simply not available, to keep the NHS anywhere near proper funding, and the whole social service sector, may well be left in a worse position.
It is very easy, to point the finger, and say, so and so are the culprits, but all they can do, is listen to the advice, of their medical professionals, and hope they are right. It is not that they know, they are not medical experts, and we were certainly not the last country to lockdown. It will be interesting to see what happens, in those countries that are going to relax the lockdown, mainly for a desperate need to restart their economies, and if, but hopefully not, it all flares up again, lockdown, will have done more damage, than good. People, can only come second, after the economy, not first, as many would like to think, simply because, if the economy is f#####d, there would be no money to look after the sick/aged/unemployed etc.
It will only be seen, post c19, the way it should have been handled, and only then. Because it is a completely new virus, science is only just beginning to understand it, and until they fully understand it, and a vaccine is produced, we will have to learn to live with it, and that will be a year, or more, before it is readily available, you cannot lock a nation down, for that length of time, it is impossible. What will probably happen, is the elderly/vulnerable sections of society, will have to isolate, social distancing, masks etc will be normal. But, can they stop the football league, cricketing season, horse racing, or, for us normal markets ? the answer, is no, people will not allow that.
So, nithsdale farmer, the correct time to point the finger, is afterwards, when the facts are truly known, not a random selection of 'wannabees' spouting forth, their own agenda. Everybody should be working together.

Where did I say anything about "lockdown"? I said we haven't shut down our borders.
It was ridiculously foolish to continue allowing flights from China and Italy coming into the UK, unrestricted, after the seriousness of both countries outbreaks became apparent.


The world is learning of this virus, together. But it is undeniable the UK has not taken on board other countries experiences - bearing in mind we are tracking fully 2 weeks behind Italy and Spain.

Our govt has handled it very poorly, sadly. And no amount of poor condescension from you will alter that fact.
 
What are care homes like in Portugal? Watching the video posted on the previous page, the Swedish epidemiologist says that the elderly in Swedish care homes have been more exposed because the care homes are larger (sometimes with hundreds of people); they should have been locked down as soon as cases appeared to be transmitted within Sweden; and Swedish care homes are often staffed by people for whom Swedish is not their first language if they speak much of it at all.

I don't think you can just compare numbers without understanding underlying circumstances, which is why I've given up looking at the statistics.

I have no idea about care homes in Portugal, either as to size or quality, but if the Portuguese hospitals can be taken as a guide, then they will be extremely clean and staffed by (on the whole) pleasant people. Some doctors seem to think they are rather special people and above everyone else, but that happens in most countries.

I agree that statistics are rather as Disraeli described them, but at least they give some sort of guide when there is nothing else to use. The age of those infected in Sweden appears disproportionately low compared to other countries - despite some reports not using the age distribution information. Similarly the number of deaths of those infected is disproportionately high. Deaths are most recently reported as 1511 which is more than 100 up on yesterday. Portugal an increase of 27. It is the way that younger people are more affected in Sweden (due to socialising?) and the higher death rate that has given rise to criticism by Swedes and surrounding countries.

I would guess that care home staff in Portugal do not have Portuguese as their first language either. Nor would English be the first language of many care home staff in the UK. Just a guess, no proof.
 

turbo

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
lincs
I agree we are where we are today and recriminations do no good but I do have the gut feeling that the leadership have made a hash of this. Far too slow off the mark and too timid or ignorant to make bigger decisions early enough which would have saved massive problems now. Very disappointed. But I kind of expected it. They are politicians.
Name one big decision that would of stopped Covid19 that the government didn’t do?
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
Name one big decision that would of stopped Covid19 that the government didn’t do?

Restricted air travel to essential personnel only and insisted on 14 days quarantine of incoming passengers.
Wouldn’t have stopped it but would maybe have allowed testing containment and isolation to keep pace with the rate of importation and keep it down to insignificant levels. They are restricting incoming passengers now in China as these are now the primary source of infection. But we learn nothing or we learn too slowly.
 
I have no idea about care homes in Portugal, either as to size or quality, but if the Portuguese hospitals can be taken as a guide, then they will be extremely clean and staffed by (on the whole) pleasant people. Some doctors seem to think they are rather special people and above everyone else, but that happens in most countries.

I agree that statistics are rather as Disraeli described them, but at least they give some sort of guide when there is nothing else to use. The age of those infected in Sweden appears disproportionately low compared to other countries - despite some reports not using the age distribution information. Similarly the number of deaths of those infected is disproportionately high. Deaths are most recently reported as 1511 which is more than 100 up on yesterday. Portugal an increase of 27. It is the way that younger people are more affected in Sweden (due to socialising?) and the higher death rate that has given rise to criticism by Swedes and surrounding countries.

I would guess that care home staff in Portugal do not have Portuguese as their first language either. Nor would English be the first language of many care home staff in the UK. Just a guess, no proof.
I wonder whether the vaping culture among younger generations has an influence on their case numbers? What's the percentage of fat or type II diabetics amongst them? Can we assume that continuing socialising has led to most of the younger population already being immune having shown no symptoms? If that was the case then the proportion of those who are symptomatic would appear high but in reality isn't.

Without more background information it's hard to make meaningful comparisons.
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
Schools in this area sought advice from government on travel to Italy for skiing trips and on government advice still went Italy while cases there were rocketing. To me that was madness but what do I know. Then every case round here was “somebody who returned from Italy” that’s until they had spread it into the community here.
To me that government advice to continuing travelling to countries with a growing problem was incredibly negligent.
 

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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