OSR crops looking shorter than normal on the Cotswolds?

teslacoils · May 8, 2020

Use hardly any roundup last year. Record crops.

Will use two dose a hectare this year (roughly). No crops.

Difference? Sunshine. I think my attitude to farming without roundup / plough has some link to latitude.

ajd132 · May 8, 2020

MX7 said:
So are you envisaging a sort of half way house , so as to speak, between John Pawsey’s philosophy on farming ( organic) and conventional in its broadest sense?
In the future will you be farming a few fields using the technique you envisage combinable crop farming is going to?
Is the AHDB doing any long term trials, using crop establishment, management , rotation etc following the principles that you, @Clive and other forward thinking TFF members are starting to think “this may be the way forward so we need to put our thoughts in to practice on a small scale, to see if it is practically and financially sustainable”.?

Yes kind of a half way house. I think we will have to trial a field. I actually farm next to John Pawsey so keep a keen eye on what he is doing . I believe he is trying similar with no till.

ajd132 · May 8, 2020

Another thought is keeping a clover understory in the crop to supply N. I think a lot of our weed problems, especially blackgrass is partly down the amount of artificial N we use.

Clive · May 8, 2020

MX7 said:
Serious question to @Clive , are you or will you be farming a few fields as a trial / experiment,without using glyphosate and some other pesticides for an indefinite period , so that you can put your ideals for the way farming should be going in to practice.
As said serious question and no sarcasm implied.

i’m not some sort of research institution ! No one is paying me to do such research ..... but I’m a few years ahead and already have done just that

I have already have run no glyphosate no till trials for my own r&d. We grew 40 ac of winter beans into cover crop with no herbicides at all last year (so no glyphosate) Which went well and I’m part of a innovative farmers living mulch trial now that has just started and should not only remove herbicide use but also synthetic N use (a bigger threat than loosing glyphosate imo !)

I have run mechanical cover crop destruction trials (fairly unsuccessfully). But will continue with this and have something new to test for Horsch next winter in this respect

there will be solutions that will enable no till without glyphosate and synthetic N in the future I’m sure

Clive · May 8, 2020

It’s also worth noting that our current glyphosate use is almost 50% less of what it was under a deep cultivation system according to our crop records that go back 22 years on gatekeeper now

the idea than no till is more dependant on this active is a myth !

Tillage farmers with big (self inflicted) grass weed issues always seem far more obsessed with the idea of glyphosate getting banned than any notill guys I know who rarely mention it !

chaffcutter · May 8, 2020

I’m a bit late to this thread but @MX7 tagged me so I will chuck in my bit.

My father ( @Clive’s grandfather) fought a never ending battle with couch or squitch as we called it, in just the way described above, plough, shake the rhizomes out with a spring tine, Harrow into rows and use a pitchfork to make fires and burn the horrible stuff. On a light land farm like this it was the work of the devil.

When rotavators came out, some bright spark suggested that by continuous passes it would cut up the rhizomes which would gradually become exhausted of regrowing and die. I would like to get my hands on that idiot, all it did was spread it further and grow denser.

Roundup was the greatest invention ever in Dad’s view even though it was so expensive at first, it was worth every penny. In Clive’s defence I have to say that I don’t think he has ever seen a really bad squitch infestation during his working lifetime, simply due to the existence of Glyphosate.

I think that keeping a vigorous, dense cover crop between cash crops would reduce the grass weed burden compared to what we used to do which was to cultivate the stubble after harvest and then leave it over winter, which seemed to just encourage the grass weeds to grow more. Then we ploughed them down which didn’t kill them either!

Godber · May 8, 2020

When a youngster I had the job of cultivating bad couch areas throughout the summer to pull it to the surface to dry out.
Creeping Thistle was another big problem, I realise there are other Chemicals other than glyphosate for its control today. Remember the combine drivers covered in white fluff unblocking radiators.
Only just old enough to remember the challenge but believe me it will return given the chance

bankrupt · May 8, 2020

chaffcutter said:
some bright spark suggested that by continuous passes it would cut up the rhizomes which would gradually become exhausted of regrowing and die. I would like to get my hands on that idiot,

In the late 50s, Howards had got hold of a research paper entitled something like "The exhaustion of rhizomatous weeds by rotary cultivation" and went all round the country doing free demos.

We had one here, and after they left it took a few months for the couch in that field to get long enough to pull up in rows with the pitchpole again, but yields were enormously increased.

1940’s John Wilder PitchPole Trailed Cultivator Harrow

bankrupt · May 8, 2020

chaffcutter said:
I have to say that I don’t think he has ever seen a really bad squitch infestation during his working lifetime,

glasshouse · May 8, 2020

chaffcutter said:
I’m a bit late to this thread but @MX7 tagged me so I will chuck in my bit.

My father ( @Clive’s grandfather) fought a never ending battle with couch or squitch as we called it, in just the way described above, plough, shake the rhizomes out with a spring tine, Harrow into rows and use a pitchfork to make fires and burn the horrible stuff. On a light land farm like this it was the work of the devil.

When rotavators came out, some bright spark suggested that by continuous passes it would cut up the rhizomes which would gradually become exhausted of regrowing and die. I would like to get my hands on that idiot, all it did was spread it further and grow denser.

Roundup was the greatest invention ever in Dad’s view even though it was so expensive at first, it was worth every penny. In Clive’s defence I have to say that I don’t think he has ever seen a really bad squitch infestation during his working lifetime, simply due to the existence of Glyphosate.

I think that keeping a vigorous, dense cover crop between cash crops would reduce the grass weed burden compared to what we used to do which was to cultivate the stubble after harvest and then leave it over winter, which seemed to just encourage the grass weeds to grow more. Then we ploughed them down which didn’t kill them either!

Nobody born after 1970 has seen severe couch infestations
Unless they went to russia in the nineties.
I took on a 100 acre block in 1995 that had lain idle for six years,
It was infested with couch before the developer bought it, and it just multiplied unchecked till 95. Wild oats too.
4 litres of roundup did the trick, but we couldnt drill it with a combo drill, and had to resort to an old 20 row mf30 wide spaced disc drill

bankrupt · May 8, 2020

glasshouse said:
had to resort to an old 20 row mf30 wide spaced disc drill

7" spaced disc drills were the only game in town before roundup.

It was the first high-yielding varieties in the early 60s which cost M-F the UK combine market, glyphosate in the mid 70s which cost them the drill market, and their late entry into 4WD the tractor market.

Brisel · May 8, 2020

glasshouse said:
Nobody born after 1970 has seen severe couch infestations
Unless they went to russia in the nineties.
I took on a 100 acre block in 1995 that had lain idle for six years,
It was infested with couch before the developer bought it, and it just multiplied unchecked till 95. Wild oats too.
4 litres of roundup did the trick, but we couldnt drill it with a combo drill, and had to resort to an old 20 row mf30 wide spaced disc drill

I had a year on an organic dairy/beef/sheep/arable farm and had a couple of fields we lost crops on due to couch grass. I spent weeks dragging rhizomes into heaps for burning. That was 1993 and there must be some organic farmers with that problem.

glasshouse · May 8, 2020

Brisel said:
I had a year on an organic dairy/beef/sheep/arable farm and had a couple of fields we lost crops on due to couch grass. I spent weeks dragging rhizomes into heaps for burning. That was 1993 and there must be some organic farmers with that problem.

Organic farmers generally follow a proper rotation, so couch is rarely an issue.
As long as they started with a clean slate, wiped clean by 3litre roundup

yellow belly · May 8, 2020

Back to the op
rape I saw today non on my farm
is similar to some we had last year it looked ok in februarry but has not burst into flower
looking closer the pollen beetles are now on the later flowers as the early flowers have no pollen
the side branches are not vigorous due to flea beetle

the problem will not go away because too many farmers thinking is we keep this years crops because the have responded and produced a descent yield
but now less rape around the pollen beetle do not have enough flowers open
what was needed was farmers to be ruthless and only keep the very good looking crops
because the poor ones are just fleabeetle breeding grounds

A farmer to succeed growing large areas of rape needs every one to grow large areas next year or they get all the flea beetle and pollen beetle
rape also needs dry winters and plenty of residual nitrogen in the soil
up to 1990 best grade 3 cropped land land had been grass for 50% of the previous 50 years with plenty of residual n from organic matter the heavy land was drained and ploughed up from 1965 to 1985 the land ploughed up prior to 1965 was either long term grass or had functioning drains from or was freer draining arable but grass from 1920 to 1940

Brisel · May 8, 2020

yellow belly said:
Back to the op
rape I saw today non on my farm
is similar to some we had last year it looked ok in februarry but has not burst into flower
looking closer the pollen beetles are now on the later flowers as the early flowers have no pollen
the side branches are not vigorous due to flea beetle

the problem will not go away because too many farmers thinking is we keep this years crops because the have responded and produced a descent yield
but now less rape around the pollen beetle do not have enough flowers open
what was needed was farmers to be ruthless and only keep the very good looking crops
because the poor ones are just fleabeetle breeding grounds

A farmer to succeed growing large areas of rape needs every one to grow large areas next year or they get all the flea beetle and pollen beetle
rape also needs dry winters and plenty of residual nitrogen in the soil
up to 1990 best grade 3 cropped land land had been grass for 50% of the previous 50 years with plenty of residual n from organic matter the heavy land was drained and ploughed up from 1965 to 1985 the land ploughed up prior to 1965 was either long term grass or had functioning drains from or was freer draining arable but grass from 1920 to 1940

You’re mostly right. The best osr crops were after a warm autumn and relatively dry winter. To get over the problems of pollen beetle pressure you need a nice even crop from hedge to hedge and that takes us back to the main source of a good crop - good establishment.

bankrupt · May 8, 2020

yellow belly said:
up to 1990 best grade 3 cropped land land had been grass for 50% of the previous 50 years with plenty of residual n from organic matter the heavy land was drained and ploughed up from 1965 to 1985 the land ploughed up prior to 1965 was either long term grass or had functioning drains from or was freer draining arable but grass from 1920 to 1940

Funnily enough, yellow belly, your analysis mirrors that of the Strutt Report into the terrible state of UK arable following the appalling autumn of 1968 (with all the dates just moved on 50 years or so).

Then, for example, up to 1940 best grade 3 cropped land had been grass for 50% of the previous 50 years . . . . land ploughed up 1915 was . . . . grass from 1870 to 1890.

Interestingly, Sir Nigel reported that a large contributory factor to the disaster was the widespread adoption by farmers of ever-heavier machinery, with some tractors then approaching 70hp.

Pilatus · May 8, 2020

bankrupt said:
Funnily enough, yellow belly, your analysis mirrors that of the Strutt Report into the terrible state of UK arable following the appalling autumn of 1968 (with all the dates just moved on 50 years or so).

Then, for example, up to 1940 best grade 3 cropped land had been grass for 50% of the previous 50 years . . . . land ploughed up 1915 was . . . . grass from 1870 to 1890.

Interestingly, Sir Nigel reported that a large contributory factor to the disaster was the widespread adoption by farmers of ever-heavier machinery, with some tractors then approaching 70hp.

I wish I hadn't burnt my copy of the "Modern Farming and the Soil " the Strutt report, as some one on Amazon in the USA has a copy for sale for over £ 760 pounds!!!!!!
Joking a side if any one can get hold of a copy it may make interesting reading for the younger TFF members as it just shows how "slowly do the wheels of progress move", as it seems to me that report could have been written yesterday!!!!!!

yellow belly · May 8, 2020

bankrupt said:
Funnily enough, yellow belly, your analysis mirrors that of the Strutt Report into the terrible state of UK arable following the appalling autumn of 1968 (with all the dates just moved on 50 years or so).

Then, for example, up to 1940 best grade 3 cropped land had been grass for 50% of the previous 50 years . . . . land ploughed up 1915 was . . . . grass from 1870 to 1890.

Interestingly, Sir Nigel reported that a large contributory factor to the disaster was the widespread adoption by farmers of ever-heavier machinery, with some tractors then approaching 70hp.

every medium to heavy land farmer with 30 years experience on the plough cultivater or drill on the same fields could come to the same conclusion
my soil science lecturer at college didn’t have a clue said muck was of no benefit and a farmer could not change the soil
completely wrong seen it in my 40 years hopefully the next generation will benefit from better practice and not bash the soil to oblivion

ajd132 · May 9, 2020

The worst think that happens to agriculture is Liebigs law of replacement, even he didn’t believe in it!
Agricultural education has treated soil as a medium to stand something in whilst only focusing on the chemical properties.
20th century bag and bottle farming has done its job but is no longer fit for purpose, it has made multi nationals richer and farmers Just continue the cycle of being skint and moaning whilst never actually trying to change anything.

OSR crops looking shorter than normal on the Cotswolds?

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