Self propelled to Trailed

principal skinner · May 18, 2020

Went from SP to trailed this time last year, no regrets at all.

Yep slightly more difficult around poles and reversing, GPS that works going backwards helps massively

All the comforts of a new tractor which has done 900 hours in twelve months, drilling, rolling, fert, spraying and trailer work

Takes no time at all to hook up and go spraying.

4000lt tank, SP was 2500, meaning all bar one field sprayed on a load and all ‘blocks’ sprayed on two loads- huge time saver.

Faster and safer on the road.

Used trailed are very good value for money.

950 acres all arable and there is now way I could make a second hand sp add up, tbh I am with Clive I just can’t see how a combinable crop farm can make it pay on under 5000 acres of chem and fert.

Hampton · May 18, 2020

Drillman said:
Well I’m just glad folks are buying this new kit so in 20 years time it can filter down to peasants like me

Just got a ridiculously high spec chafer Guardian second hand as the previous owner has upgraded to a horsch. 16 sections over 24m, two sets of wheels (Xeobib rowcrops and 650’s) auto contour boom, 5 different sets of nozzles, twin boom lines, topcon box included.
can’t go wrong, will last me for years

Romeogolf · May 18, 2020

Clive said:
assuming new trailed vs new self prop and a £100k difference (as would have been the case for us) i would be genuinely interested to see if you can justify the decision financially at all or not ?

or if it’s just what you want and what you can afford then fair enough ?

Your assumption does not apply in this equation. I am not specifically talking about brand new machines, because I don’t believe my business can justify having the plastic on the seat. Yours may well do, and that is down to you. I cannot see how £250k on a new SP makes sense, but the question being discussed is not solely about buying brand new machines.

For your business, the difference was 100k, and I concede that as you have sufficient tractor power in hand, the saving is considerable and hard to be ignored and so I am sure that was the right decision for you and your business.
My business on the other hand, does not have ‘spare’ tractor power, and as such the situation is completely different. To spend £100k on a trailed sprayer and then have to buy another power source, equip it with relevant tech, when my business does not require another tractor save for this element makes the waters cloudy. Bear in mind, that £100k buys you a lot of SP sprayer if you are happy to accept it isn’t brand new, and may cost you a bit of down time every now and again.

To call it a ‘no brainer’ provokes a slightly prickly response in me, because it indicates that the purveyor of that phrase cannot comprehend any other alternative than their own, when that is simply not the case as demonstrated above.

As for justifying it financially, i do not need, nor want another tractor for 10 months of the year. I can hire one in for the other 2 months and let someone else maintain it and stomach the depreciation. So the gap isn’t £100k for me, as to buy a top spec trailed and tractor to pull it, I am in the region of a pretty high spec SP.

For me, factoring financials, convenience, ease of use, and maintaining the ‘no excess baggage’ ethos of my business, I believe it makes sense to run a SP.

But my whole point is that it isn’t, and will never be, a ‘no brainer’ in either direction. Every business is different.

Chae1 · May 18, 2020

Hampton said:
Just got a ridiculously high spec chafer Guardian second hand as the previous owner has upgraded to a horsch. 16 sections over 24m, two sets of wheels (Xeobib rowcrops and 650’s) auto contour boom, 5 different sets of nozzles, twin boom lines, topcon box included.
can’t go wrong, will last me for years

Feel free to tell me to fudge off.

But how much roughly would something that spec cost?

l'ordinary bonville · May 18, 2020

I ran a trailed 28m JD 832 then moved up to 32m on a used Bateman.

It took me only a few days spraying (probably 1st day TBH) to realise I'd made a mistake.

Fendt 820 at the time ran for about a week on the sprayer to a tankful of fuel whereas the Bateman lasted under 2 days.
Bateman slower on the road
Bateman much noisier and bouncier
Probably fine other than that.

Decision was made to run an extra tractor as always short over harvest/sowing so it made the trailed decision easier.

Now run a 724 on 32m Horsch GS6 bought 4 seasons ago (before Clive

)

Horsch vs. Bateman

Faster between fields
Runs booms lower for less drift
Can travel faster and booms remain at correct height
Carry 6000 litres and now spray 160-200 litres/ha
Liquid fert at any speed due to nozzle control. Have gone from 8k to 20k up a run at constant 320l/ha fertiliser
Tractor is used for spraying, some solid fert, drilling, cultivations, grain carting
Takes 2-3 mins to hook sprayer on and off

Having the extra tractor rather than that power unit being tied up in a SP is so much more useful

Benefits of SP

Backs into corners and negotiates obstacles better
Slightly less crop paddled

If I had the work for it or the money burning a hole in my pocket I would have a Horsch SP
Nothing quite matches that boom control

Fragonard · May 18, 2020

Clive said:
self prop was 260k for same spec as our 100k trailed

the traction is already here and drills, ferts, carts and cultivates so our extra cost is only the increase in R&M created by extra hours - most cereal farms have a tractor avaible, its takes less than 1 min to pit on or drop off so the idea ties out a tractor full time is a bit of a myth IMO

Do you change wheels, or leave on originals?

Banana Bar · May 19, 2020

Clive said:
doesn’t a trailed plus a “free” porsche or small used yacht with the change sound a better option !

some people love farming too much !

Oh yes!

Banana Bar · May 19, 2020

Spud said:
Blimey, a new sp must be serious coin! 724 will be iro £140k? Horsch 5000/36 I'd guess will bray a hole in another hundred grand. Is a comparable sized sp really a third of a million quid?

Almost

Clive · May 19, 2020

Fragonard said:
Do you change wheels, or leave on originals?

we stay on 710’s all year - keep it simple

on 36m we are loosing very little more than we are 24m and narrow wheels abd can travel in pretty much any conditions and don’t leave ruts

Clive · May 19, 2020

Romeogolf said:
Your assumption does not apply in this equation. I am not specifically talking about brand new machines, because I don’t believe my business can justify having the plastic on the seat. Yours may well do, and that is down to you. I cannot see how £250k on a new SP makes sense, but the question being discussed is not solely about buying brand new machines.

For your business, the difference was 100k, and I concede that as you have sufficient tractor power in hand, the saving is considerable and hard to be ignored and so I am sure that was the right decision for you and your business.
My business on the other hand, does not have ‘spare’ tractor power, and as such the situation is completely different. To spend £100k on a trailed sprayer and then have to buy another power source, equip it with relevant tech, when my business does not require another tractor save for this element makes the waters cloudy. Bear in mind, that £100k buys you a lot of SP sprayer if you are happy to accept it isn’t brand new, and may cost you a bit of down time every now and again.

To call it a ‘no brainer’ provokes a slightly prickly response in me, because it indicates that the purveyor of that phrase cannot comprehend any other alternative than their own, when that is simply not the case as demonstrated above.

As for justifying it financially, i do not need, nor want another tractor for 10 months of the year. I can hire one in for the other 2 months and let someone else maintain it and stomach the depreciation. So the gap isn’t £100k for me, as to buy a top spec trailed and tractor to pull it, I am in the region of a pretty high spec SP.

For me, factoring financials, convenience, ease of use, and maintaining the ‘no excess baggage’ ethos of my business, I believe it makes sense to run a SP.

But my whole point is that it isn’t, and will never be, a ‘no brainer’ in either direction. Every business is different.

I am comparing new yes - comparing new trailed with used self prop would be a rather daft financial comparison

i maintain that financially it’s a no brainer for a all combinable crops farm - as @Banana Bar says you are taking near 300k vs 100k ! for same spec new machines these days

however money no object I would have the horsch self prop over the trailered - it is of course better in several ways , but i’m here to mane money not impress my neighbours and play with toys i like ....... sadly money is not no object

i can also see a sound financial argument for self prop on roots, crab and other high value crops sprayed pretty much weekly

but on combinable crops new vs new the is no logical argument other that “because i want to and i can”

re used - having run older self propelled i warm of the kind of bills they can generate very easily btw especially hydro machines

fudge · May 19, 2020

snarling bee said:
Its nothing to do with tractor availability. If I was to go to a tractor powered solution I would go mounted. Our SP is 4WS and turns tighter than any tractor. Dragging a trailed sprayer in marginal conditions on heavy sloping clay would make an even bigger mess than we can make with a 7 tonne SP. You are obviously more skilled than we would be at reversing up to field obstacles.

speaking as someone who will always have a trailed sprayer, I have to agree with this. any volume of work on moisture retentive land gives sp a big advantage on certain days. On this marshland the vast majority of my neighbours have sp for that reason.

Spud · May 19, 2020

Clive said:
I am comparing new yes - comparing new trailed with used self prop would be a rather daft financial comparison

i maintain that financially it’s a no brainer for a all combinable crops farm - as @Banana Bar says you are taking near 300k vs 100k ! for same spec new machines these days

however money no object I would have the horsch self prop over the trailered - it is of course better in several ways , but i’m here to mane money not impress my neighbours and play with toys i like ....... sadly money is not no object

i can also see a sound financial argument for self prop on roots, crab and other high value crops sprayed pretty much weekly

but on combinable crops new vs new the is no logical argument other that “because i want to and i can”

re used - having run older self propelled i warm of the kind of bills they can generate very easily btw especially hydro machines

£100k for the sprayer yes. You seem to be ignoring the cost of the tractor in your comparison, just because you've got it anyway. How many hours does it do on the sprayer? I'll wager you're changing it at least a year earlier than you would if it wasn't spraying.

Re wheels, imo you're making excuses for being lazy. Take a middle road versatile 20.8r42, common enough size, not particularly expensive.

2*520 = 1.04m every 24m = 4% (Arguably at 24m, a 16.9r46 would be fine) 2*420 = .84m = 2%
520 wheels on 36m = 3%

710 on 36m = 1.42m run on = 4%

So 1% doesn't sound a lot, true. For every 1000ac of 4t/ac wheat, it's 40t not harvestable. At say £150/t that's Six Grand! Soon buys some wheels.
iirc you farm about double that area, so not changing wheels is costing you about £10k, give or take.

Your soils will carry a sprayer on 20.8s these days, I'm sure.

Me? I never did follow fashion. I run 4000/24 trailed on 12.4r34 fronts, 14.9r46rears and 13.6r48 on the sprayer, because I don't like running crop down. I'm here to make brass, so a bit of effort changing wheels is no drama for the return.

Spud · May 19, 2020

As a comparable illustration, last year I changed my taty harvester. I considereda an sp over a trailed, so did some sums.

SP purchase cost £550k
Average 5yo second hand value in the classified ads puts them at a sniff over £200k. Let's be kind and say depreciation is therefore £300k over 5yrs. Even lifting 500ac a year (double what I grow) that's £120/ac, before servicing, driver, or fuel (which is likely to be higher than a tractor, given its 50% more power and a heavier machine) We wouldn't save a tractor, because we need them the rest of the year, possibly cut a hire tractor out at lifting time.
My last trailed machine cost £42/ac in depreciation. (Purchase cost - sale value / acres lifted) which is a third of the sp.

But, I hear you cry, what about the tractor? Well we still need it the rest of the year, so it's here anyway.....

The tractors clock hours on the taty harvester equate to about 1.2hrs per acre lifted. At a tenner an hour, that's £12/ac.
So just in depreciation, without going into the depths of servicing and fuel costs, the trailed rig is £66/ac cheaper. On my bit, that's £16500/yr better in my pocket than that of a machinery company.

snarling bee · May 19, 2020

People seem to forget that hours cost money. Just because you have a machine on the farm doesn't make it free to run. Annual depreciation will be higher, servicing and repair costs are almost in proportion to usage.
For my money I like a (SH) SP, on my farm, in my situation, with my money. It's never a no-brainer as some would insist on here. My most recent SP cost less than a new high spec trailed, and will probably be worth more after 5 years.

Chae1 · May 19, 2020

Spud said:
As a comparable illustration, last year I changed my taty harvester. I considereda an sp over a trailed, so did some sums.

SP purchase cost £550k
Average 5yo second hand value in the classified ads puts them at a sniff over £200k. Let's be kind and say depreciation is therefore £300k over 5yrs. Even lifting 500ac a year (double what I grow) that's £120/ac, before servicing, driver, or fuel (which is likely to be higher than a tractor, given its 50% more power and a heavier machine) We wouldn't save a tractor, because we need them the rest of the year, possibly cut a hire tractor out at lifting time.
My last trailed machine cost £42/ac in depreciation. (Purchase cost - sale value / acres lifted) which is a third of the sp.

But, I hear you cry, what about the tractor? Well we still need it the rest of the year, so it's here anyway.....

The tractors clock hours on the taty harvester equate to about 1.2hrs per acre lifted. At a tenner an hour, that's £12/ac.
So just in depreciation, without going into the depths of servicing and fuel costs, the trailed rig is £66/ac cheaper. On my bit, that's £16500/yr better in my pocket than that of a machinery company.

Does the reduced soil damage and bigger harvest window not come into it too?

I know absolutely nothing about root crops I might add.

I know some farmers up here won't let land to potato growers without a self propelled harvester.

Spud · May 19, 2020

Chae1 said:
Does the reduced soil damage and bigger harvest window not come into it too?

I know absolutely nothing about root crops I might add.

I know some farmers up here won't let land to potato growers without a self propelled harvester.

In theory, yes.

In practice, not really.

We had an sp come to help us lift in 2012. After lots of backing and chewing and revving and braying, we conceded that the thing was too heavy, it just wouldn't travel. Steve dropped into his ruts with our trailed Standen T2 and picked up the bed windrowed out for the sp and carried on.

I considered how many days on a average an sp could lift that our t2 couldn't. None.
I considered workrate. There's a tiny saving at row ends with a bunker sp, which might add up to a trailer load a year.
I considered the bunker. Huge extra weight, and similar extra handling to using a trailed to windrow.

Tracks would be a must to keep the thing afloat. Much more expensive to buy, run and insure. The extra interest within a finance agreement of that magnitude alone is not insignificant.

I concluded that I'd be much better off cutting back to 50ac and lifting them with a ten grand harvester, than I would be buying a self propelled monster.

Clive · May 19, 2020

Spud said:
£100k for the sprayer yes. You seem to be ignoring the cost of the tractor in your comparison, just because you've got it anyway. How many hours does it do on the sprayer? I'll wager you're changing it at least a year earlier than you would if it wasn't spraying.

Re wheels, imo you're making excuses for being lazy. Take a middle road versatile 20.8r42, common enough size, not particularly expensive.

2*520 = 1.04m every 24m = 4% (Arguably at 24m, a 16.9r46 would be fine) 2*420 = .84m = 2%
520 wheels on 36m = 3%

710 on 36m = 1.42m run on = 4%

So 1% doesn't sound a lot, true. For every 1000ac of 4t/ac wheat, it's 40t not harvestable. At say £150/t that's Six Grand! Soon buys some wheels.
iirc you farm about double that area, so not changing wheels is costing you about £10k, give or take.

Your soils will carry a sprayer on 20.8s these days, I'm sure.

Me? I never did follow fashion. I run 4000/24 trailed on 12.4r34 fronts, 14.9r46rears and 13.6r48 on the sprayer, because I don't like running crop down. I'm here to make brass, so a bit of effort changing wheels is no drama for the return.

I already have the tractor so I’m in a 150k plus better capital position which ever way you want to look at it

the tractor woulkd still be here if I had a selp prop as a self prop can’t drill, cultivate, roll, cart and spread

Clive · May 19, 2020

snarling bee said:
People seem to forget that hours cost money. Just because you have a machine on the farm doesn't make it free to run. Annual depreciation will be higher, servicing and repair costs are almost in proportion to usage.
For my money I like a (SH) SP, on my farm, in my situation, with my money. It's never a no-brainer as some would insist on here. My most recent SP cost less than a new high spec trailed, and will probably be worth more after 5 years.

Buy far the biggest cost of any tractor or self prop is depreciation

I dont think adding the extra hours to my tractor significantly increases depreciation , it still only clocks up “average” annual hours (1000 ish) it does increase R&M costs you would have those `R&M costs with a self prop so its the significant depreciation you are really (mostly) saving

There is also the capital cost - the cost of havIng that extra 150k tied up in another machine cash or finance that money has a cost

Clive · May 19, 2020

Spud said:
£100k for the sprayer yes. You seem to be ignoring the cost of the tractor in your comparison, just because you've got it anyway. How many hours does it do on the sprayer? I'll wager you're changing it at least a year earlier than you would if it wasn't spraying.

Re wheels, imo you're making excuses for being lazy. Take a middle road versatile 20.8r42, common enough size, not particularly expensive.

2*520 = 1.04m every 24m = 4% (Arguably at 24m, a 16.9r46 would be fine) 2*420 = .84m = 2%
520 wheels on 36m = 3%

710 on 36m = 1.42m run on = 4%

So 1% doesn't sound a lot, true. For every 1000ac of 4t/ac wheat, it's 40t not harvestable. At say £150/t that's Six Grand! Soon buys some wheels.
iirc you farm about double that area, so not changing wheels is costing you about £10k, give or take.

Your soils will carry a sprayer on 20.8s these days, I'm sure.

Me? I never did follow fashion. I run 4000/24 trailed on 12.4r34 fronts, 14.9r46rears and 13.6r48 on the sprayer, because I don't like running crop down. I'm here to make brass, so a bit of effort changing wheels is no drama for the return.

Re the wheels, Not being lazy - it’s about all cost for me

I run a VERY tight fixed costs structure here, labour is very limited and the tractor needs to easy swap between work so running row crops would require many changes a year, ive run the numbers and its just not worth it, we just do noit have the spare man power to keep swapping and as pointed out earlier by others there is a risk a trailed can end up trying upon a tractor if you do so

a 710 doesn’t actually run down as much as you might think, certainly doesn’t look at all bad. Narrow wheels also require much higher pressures and restrict road speed which with our well speed area would restrict work rates and road stability as well

anyways it works for me ! Thanks god I have such a low fixed cost business in a year like this is all I can say ! Because it’s not going to be a big output year Here thats for sure

Spud · May 19, 2020

Clive said:
I already have the tractor so I’m in a 150k plus better capital position which ever way you want to look at it

the tractor woulkd still be here if I had a selp prop as a self prop can’t drill, cultivate, roll, cart and spread

I get that Clive.

My point is that your tractor will wear out quicker if it is spraying on top of all the other jobs, so will need changing quicker, and hence cost more.
Surely some of the capital requirement for the tractor needs to be accounted for in the sprayer costings, just as it would for any other implement, otherwise what is paying for it?
Will you put a loader on it and get rid of a forklift too, and say you've saved a fortune, getting rid of a 70grand telehandler for a 10grand loader to go on a tractor that 'you have anyway'?

It's not long since you were claiming owning a Bateman sprayer was a 'no brainer' - trailed sprayers were for peasants, not professional contract farmers, apparently. How things change!

Self propelled to Trailed

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