Self propelled to Trailed

Will 1594 · May 23, 2020

Feldspar said:
This is something I've been thinking about quite a bit. It really does depend on field size and shape. The output from the Horsch tanking along at 25 kph putting on fertiliser gives a mammoth spot rate, but to make use of this you really do need big fields, otherwise you hit that speed for a few seconds a run and never on the headlands (which can be half the field area in smaller fields). I can do a 30 ha field in an hour on one farm, whereas a 13 ha one took me also an hour the other day due to poles and it being the first time through it with that machine.

I have found that a 36m Horsch with an 8000l tank and an 8000l bowser will struggle to get done what our old 24m Spray Ranger and 24m RB17 Bateman could do in a spraying day. That said, we are getting still quicker and quicker at using the new setup, which has been improving output, but a decent day on the Bateman was 300ac, whereas a decent day on the Horsch could be 500ac. As soon as you throw in telegraph poles / in field trees, the work rate plummets. It's made me realise how costly electricity poles are in killing output and requiring more capacity to get work done. Other people tell me they do 1000ac in a long day. I cannot see how I can get close to this at the moment.

Where the Horsch really steps it up is on fert. My best day so far was 85 cube of fert, and I think on our bigger fields we could do 100 cube. The Bateman I think would struggle to get anywhere near 50 cube (although that's not fair on Bateman as it was a completely different machine not specced for liquid fert). We now put all the main N dose on in one go, and at speeds that we never did with the Bateman, which gets it on at a less scorchy and less risky time of year and saves a pass. This year I waited until the day before rain was due and then did all the wheat in one day.

As we are considering removing more land out of production, there is no doubt that a new Fastrac and Horsch is a big part of our machinery value and puts a big number on the annual machinery depreciation. I've said this already, but the old system was probably cheaper spraying, but with safety concerns and a possible retirement of people, it would not have made sense to replace the old system with two new Batemans say. However, if I was farming more like 4000ac, I might think harder about the economics or running two Batemans. The depreciation they have or don't have really does make a big difference to running costs, whereas a Horsch is much more of an unknown, and, despite their outstanding engineering design and attention to detail, there is a lot of wiring and complexity there if you ever needed to strip a boom down.

I think, being honest, there was a bit of shiny kit syndrome in the decision. I now reasonably enjoy spraying, whereas I used to really dislike it due the improvement in a lot of little small things that add up. There are a lot of people running in unsafe cabs and filling in unsafe ways, and our new system deals with both of those issues that we had before. In the end, I decided my own health and exposure to HSE prosecution as the person who has overall responsibility for everything was worth the spend.

May i ask how many acres you cover in a season , and what do you recon ,it costs you to run spray outfit per acre ,
Dont have shiny kit syndrome here , if we changed to same sprayer as got now with , section control and the latest gadgets ,with all the bells ,would be around 70 p acre all in ,would cost £50000 to swap , but at 8 year old and nothing wrong with it ,just done pump ,and fitted 2 more sections ,and have a little matrix 430 ,which shows sections , and switch manually ,and pull it with an immaculate 13000 hr tractor ,we did buy another this time ,to go on sprayer but like the old one best , ,
We demo a horsch last year ,but the crops are just as good and as clean using old sprayer , cannot justify the extra chunk to change to one , the cash is better invested in more irrigation ,,now if we like bannana or your self dong 4000 acre multiple times it would be considered , we have a berthoud , because of the service and back up ,boston crop provide

Sharpy · May 23, 2020

Brisel said:
Did you want me to answer this?

I'd buy one SP and one trailed from what little I know of your setup. Liquid N scorch increases as more product hits the leaf at higher speeds with the lateral shear. I cover 2200 acres of arable with 1 trailed 6000l 36m trailed here with a good operator who works the long hours when needed, especially recently when it has been "scorchio" during the daytime

I'm changing jobs in July, going to a 3600ac arable unit with a Bateman and a trailed on 24m which sounds like plenty of capacity. I don't know what the fertiliser policy is there.

View attachment 880692

Best of luck in your new job, I hope you can continue posting on here. Considered, well thought out posts like yours are in the minority on here and I would miss you.

Farma Parma · May 23, 2020

Brisel said:
There are a few doing that up that way - @juke @Suddy for a start. Edwin Taylor, BASE UK chairman, is in Northumberland

I’m not about to turn the place upside down on day one. Got to learn the place, soils and system before working out what can be tweaked and tuned. That’s going to take a while.

Northumberland did i hear you say chrikey thats too close! moving to pastures new in Yorkshire, good luck sir & i hope you will still contribute on here

Farma Parma · May 23, 2020

benny6910 said:
Don’t worry I’m sure what ever part of North Yorkshire your going too there will be plenty of people who will want to educate you into local ways.

This is what he needs to get used too... hey up!

Feldspar · May 23, 2020

Will 1594 said:
May i ask how many acres you cover in a season , and what do you recon ,it costs you to run spray outfit per acre ,
Dont have shiny kit syndrome here , if we changed to same sprayer as got now with , section control and the latest gadgets ,with all the bells ,would be around 70 p acre all in ,would cost £50000 to swap , but at 8 year old and nothing wrong with it ,just done pump ,and fitted 2 more sections ,and have a little matrix 430 ,which shows sections , and switch manually ,and pull it with an immaculate 13000 hr tractor ,we did buy another this time ,to go on sprayer but like the old one best , ,
We demo a horsch last year ,but the crops are just as good and as clean using old sprayer , cannot justify the extra chunk to change to one , the cash is better invested in more irrigation ,,now if we like bannana or your self dong 4000 acre multiple times it would be considered , we have a berthoud , because of the service and back up ,boston crop provide

I really think there are many ways to skin the cat on this topic, hence why debates about it carry on for ages. This year it's covering about 2000ac (plus another 1500ac that just needs one spray pass). If you run this year's depreciation on a new tractor (which does do harvest work and some cultivations) and the sprayer it's going to be very high. Simple numbers 15% of 250k divide by 2300 say. Correcting for other work the tractor does means reducing the 250k figure down to £220k.

However, I don't think that's a helpful way of looking at it, and I am conscious of adjusting accounting methods to justify my decision, but I've made plan to keep the current machinery setup the same (at least for all the major ticket items) for at least the lifetime of the Mid Tier agreements that we are in. This takes us to 2024 for the main agreement and 2026 for the one I'll do this year for about 500ac of option area.

Therefore, I averaged the annual machinery depreciation over the lifetime of the main Mid Tier agreement. The only slight unknown will be what happens between 2024 and 2026 when I'm unsure how much land will come back into production. We had a budget made when deciding whether our Mid Tier agreements made sense and this with this setup we stayed within budget. Had I been permanently been cropping 2000ac I might have got a cheaper sprayer, but this setup needs to work if we ramp back up to 3500ac because I hope to run it for 10 years across pretty much all scenarios.

Will7 · May 23, 2020

The interesting point in these threads which is seldom touched on in the competence of the operator. This makes a massive difference to output, whether being able to work out each constituent amount in each load in their heads, or knowing how to spray multiple fields together to minimise non spraying time. Some of the outputs of these mega money outfits is frankly pathetic.

T Hectares · May 23, 2020

Will7 said:
The interesting point in these threads which is seldom touched on in the competence of the operator. This makes a massive difference to output, whether being able to work out each constituent amount in each load in their heads, or knowing how to spray multiple fields together to minimise non spraying time. Some of the outputs of these mega money outfits is frankly pathetic.

Absolutely agree, I think sprayer output is a factor of many things, field sizes and shapes and operator aptitude really make a big influence, but then I remember what I used to achieve with a 2000ltr Hi-Lo years ago it makes me wonder what all this size, weight and money has achieved!!!

Feldspar · May 23, 2020

Will7 said:
The interesting point in these threads which is seldom touched on in the competence of the operator. This makes a massive difference to output, whether being able to work out each constituent amount in each load in their heads, or knowing how to spray multiple fields together to minimise non spraying time. Some of the outputs of these mega money outfits is frankly pathetic.

Sorry, I'll try and drive faster next time. Perhaps you could come and show me how to do it?

Brisel · May 23, 2020

T Hectares said:
Absolutely agree, I think sprayer output is a factor of many things, field sizes and shapes and operator aptitude really make a big influence, but then I remember what I used to achieve with a 2000ltr Hi-Lo years ago it makes me wonder what all this size, weight and money has achieved!!!

How many more hours were you working each day to cover the same area?

Banana Bar · May 23, 2020

T Hectares said:
Absolutely agree, I think sprayer output is a factor of many things, field sizes and shapes and operator aptitude really make a big influence, but then I remember what I used to achieve with a 2000ltr Hi-Lo years ago it makes me wonder what all this size, weight and money has achieved!!!

Agree with this. I send my guy on the sprayer an email every evening / early morning with a plan for the next 2 days. How he does it is up to him but I do spend a long time working out the way for him to minimise washing or all clearing. If he does it differently so be it. I’ve got 2 excellent lads and I trust them to get on with it, they don’t disappoint.

Feldspar · May 23, 2020

Banana Bar said:
Agree with this. I send my guy on the sprayer an email every evening / early morning with a plan for the next 2 days. How he does it is up to him but I do spend a long time working out the way for him to minimise washing or all clearing. If he does it differently so be it. I’ve got 2 excellent lads and I trust them to get on with it, they don’t disappoint.

What would you say is an average output in a 12 hr spraying period with your current machine? Assume we don't all have 800 ac in 13 fields like @ajd132 and you have to drive a bit to get between blocks (6-10 miles typical for us).

I'm happy to learn that I'm getting a miserable output and can therefore get much more done and go to bed earlier.

Clive · May 23, 2020

Banana Bar said:
Agree with this. I send my guy on the sprayer an email every evening / early morning with a plan for the next 2 days. How he does it is up to him but I do spend a long time working out the way for him to minimise washing or all clearing. If he does it differently so be it. I’ve got 2 excellent lads and I trust them to get on with it, they don’t disappoint.

good people far important than any machinery

Feldspar · May 23, 2020

Brisel said:
Did you want me to answer this?

I'd buy one SP and one trailed from what little I know of your setup. Liquid N scorch increases as more product hits the leaf at higher speeds with the lateral shear. I cover 2200 acres of arable with 1 trailed 6000l 36m trailed here with a good operator who works the long hours when needed, especially recently when it has been "scorchio" during the daytime

I'm changing jobs in July, going to a 3600ac arable unit with a Bateman and a trailed on 24m which sounds like plenty of capacity. I don't know what the fertiliser policy is there.

View attachment 880692

Sorry, off topic, but whoever your new employers are, they will be lucky to have you. Good luck with with the change!

Will7 · May 23, 2020

Feldspar said:
Sorry, I'll try and drive faster next time. Perhaps you could come and show me how to do it?

That is exactly my point, it is not about driving faster.

Feldspar · May 23, 2020

Will7 said:
That is exactly my point, it is not about driving faster.

Well in that case I'll say you don't know enough about my situation to use the word 'pathetic' if you had me in mind. That's just rude and not what should be done on here if people are taking the time to be honest and not bullshitting about what they do. I'll know more than your average spray operator about agronomy and the interaction with what chemicals are going in the tank. Because I do the agronomy myself and pay the bills for the chemical I can make changes on the fly as fast as anyone. I'm sorry if my land is too spread out for your liking, or that my fields are too small or with too many obstacles. I'll take constructive criticism from those I know actually walk the walk (I'll take @Banana Bar's advice any day of the week as I know he runs a tight ship for example) and have some idea about particular circumstances.

T Hectares · May 23, 2020

Brisel said:
How many more hours were you working each day to cover the same area?

You can only work so many hours a day!!
Hopefully with better tech and capacity you can cover more ground...
Farms then increase in size as one man can cover more ground...
But then there's more road work and more logistics, more downtime, it's harder to be as efficient.
A good sprayer operator can make a lot of difference, managing opportunities, minimising washing out, blocking fields together, minimising downtime, good maintenance, it's a job that suits a thinker and not a steering wheel attendant !!

I still really enjoy spraying, it really helps my field walking and agronomy decisions and there's nothing better than an early morning or late evening driving through my crops

Brisel · May 23, 2020

This is what Countryside Stewardship is for. The beetle bank down the centre is along the line of power poles. The bit around the tree is awkward to drive around and the wood to the south creates a lot of shade anyway. Why mess about with these bits? The profitable bit is in the centre and the edges are marginal. It's not a recipe for every field, but suits the easy operations in this one. No beating booms and cultivators on the poles.

When you are limited by land area you want every piece to sweat, you'd put up with less acres per day. For the bigger operators, there's much that can be done to make the job more efficient. It's not just about the machine.

Hjwise · May 23, 2020

You can be a good operator or a bad one on both an SP or trailed, it makes little difference as it’s all relative. The sum of this discussion is that you pay a bit more for a dedicated machine - by and large it’s better at the job (as that is what it was designed to do). If the the extra cost doesn’t outway the hassle factor of a trailed machine then you have your answer. Whether it does or not will be different on every farm.

Feldspar · May 24, 2020

Brisel said:
View attachment 881075
This is what Countryside Stewardship is for. The beetle bank down the centre is along the line of power poles. The bit around the tree is awkward to drive around and the wood to the south creates a lot of shade anyway. Why mess about with these bits? The profitable bit is in the centre and the edges are marginal. It's not a recipe for every field, but suits the easy operations in this one. No beating booms and cultivators on the poles.

When you are limited by land area you want every piece to sweat, you'd put up with less acres per day. For the bigger operators, there's much that can be done to make the job more efficient. It's not just about the machine.

This is really aimed at our spraying God above. Apologies to everyone else if this appears rather arrogant, but I'm going to defend myself on this one.

Done this.

Spent ages orientating tramlines to minimise wasted time and to get efficiently around poles. Wrote a spreadsheet to calculate AB lines coordinates to thread through poles.

And spent literally months perfecting our bowser to absolutely minimise downtime.

And I think we have one of the better spray stores to making chem mixing as pain free and as quick as possible.

But maybe it is just my maths ability that's really slowing me down. But then again I didn't think you you had a physics degree from Oxford too so just maybe you can shove your abacus up your induction hopper.

Am I annoyed? Yes.

Will 1594 · May 24, 2020

Feldspar said:
This is really aimed at our spraying God above.

Done this.
View attachment 881093

Spent ages orientating tramlines to minimise wasted time and to get efficiently around poles. Wrote a program to calculate AB lines coordinates to thead through poles.
View attachment 881094
View attachment 881097

And spent literally months perfecting our bowser to absolutely minimise downtime.
View attachment 881095

And I think we have one of the better spray stores to making chem mixing as pain free and as quick as possible.
View attachment 881096

But maybe it is just my maths ability that's really slowing me down. But then again I think you didn't you had a physics degree from Oxford too so just maybe you can shove your abacus up your induction hopper.

Am I annoyed? Yes.

That looks a tidy setup ,

Self propelled to Trailed

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