"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

DanM · Jul 4, 2020

pear said:
I’m a fan of that. Would I need to spray off the grass before the cover crop for planted? I’m thinking of the grass taking over the following spring? I wanted the grass in it to guarantee me some feed for winter.

Id of thought you could graze it down hard before sowing the cover crop then keep grazing the grass until the oats/legumes start to emerge, then remove all stock till your cover is established. Come spring, when you want to let the oats grow away, everything would of been grazed back and the oats would grow away at lower temperatures (you could stack the odds in oats favour with a bit of herbicide), or allow the lot to grow away and accept a lower grain yield, or cut it for whole crop, or keep grazing it over summer. Lots of options and would depend on the seasons rainfall to an extent.

Samcowman · Jul 4, 2020

Gulli said:
Water pipe is cheaper than spraying and reseeding, especially if the weather screws you over and nothing germinates!
Just buy a couple of rolls and leave it on top, despite what experts say, it doesn't dissolve in the sun

I have it overground elsewhere in a couple of fields going from a water point out to temporary water points but I would want to put this underground because it would be a permanent and the field it would run across does get cut occasionally.

hendrebc said:
Someone else already said it but why spray it off?
I'm going to try and just put an overseeding mix that's mostly Italian ryegrass into a tired permanent pasture field this summer. It won't last long and isn't diverse but it will come, or should come, reliably without spraying off and let me stomp some carbon down and feed the soil and hopefully get everything working a bit better again. No kill no till winter feed cropping sounds good if I can get it to work ?

Someone else asked this too but I've already added the quote and I really want to know so I'll remind you again. Please let us know how this goes

Maybe it needs to be a trial with a bit of both done, it’s a fairly square field so easy to do.

Rob Garrett · Jul 4, 2020

Poorbuthappy said:
Have certainly tried that here by stocking hogs very tight for 6 weeks or so during lambing. Still want the right conditions when you drill though, otherwise I've found everything gets a long rest before the seeds germinate, and the old sward gets going again as the seeds finally do.

Below the surface is more of a challenge than what's on top. How a seedling root can compeat against established rootmass? Like the sound of grazing down tight then shallow powerharrow then broadcast, but only when conditions are right.

Whitewalker · Jul 4, 2020

@Karliboy so we have electrified the back fence after tonight I found the loop between the fence tie and the reel completely chewed off . Fail ?

jack6480 · Jul 4, 2020

a couple of goes I’ve had with sowing into old leys has been varied but I’m still trying.
Tried some stubble turnips onto sprayed off ley and they have come buy are patchy, where there was some loose soil from a drain being put in they were noticeably better. But it looked like moisture was the restriction from the dry weather

another one was westerwolds into old turf (after mowing) which I believe are doing well now!

I haven’t worked it all out yet but we are having a go!

bitwrx · Jul 4, 2020

Big day for me here. My first temporary fence erected with my own gear (partly) in pursuit of my own goals.

Brother's mates are coming for a camping weekend at the end of the month and are going to be based in/around an old dutch barn that doesn't get used for much any more. Trouble is, the sheeps have been playing merry hell in there for months, so they need to get gone.

So far, it appears to be working

As you can see, I've splashed out on some expensive fence posts from NZ, and found some polywire at the back of the workshop from when we had cattle (at least 21yr ago!). Energiser is a 0.5J battery unit we have used in the past to train sows not to jump gates.

Really impressed with the end assembly type stakes when used as corner strainers.

Not so impressed with the state the sheep have left the barn and its environs though.

Should have shut them out months ago, but I didn't want to do this until I'd had a difficult conversation with the shepherd about next year. Managed to make that conversation happen on Thurs, so bashed on with the fence today. Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs, as they say.

As far as grazing goes, this is the situation I'm aiming to avoid next year.

Slightly past its best, I think. Surprisingly thin in the bottom, bare in patches, and barely a clover plant to be seen. Not what I'm trying to achieve.

Onward and upward.

clod hopper · Jul 4, 2020

Kiwi Pete said:
Sure can
Looks bloody awful compared to the past few weeks so it'll be interesting to see what those dirtier cells do.
Been a dream winter here so far - I won't lie, it's the driest I've ever known - it's only starting to look wet now, normally "this" is expected from April onwards.

You need a good shower to wash it clean, surprising how much better it will look, if not washed it will take a bit of time to come back. I see it all the time up here

Gulli · Jul 5, 2020

Samcowman said:
I have it overground elsewhere in a couple of fields going from a water point out to temporary water points but I would want to put this underground because it would be a permanent and the field it would run across does get cut occasionally.

Maybe it needs to be a trial with a bit of both done, it’s a fairly square field so easy to do.

Yep that's fair enough but you can always run it on top in the mean time

Kiwi Pete · Jul 5, 2020

Today's TMR

I've been pondering your question @Samcowman and

drumroll

"it depends" to an extent on your soil/resource concerns

definitely: oats, radish if your main intent is to graze into the autumn as they'll help relieve the top few inches from mob-stocking late on - one will regrow the other will decompose. Maybe barley as well?

what brassicas grow well, here something like swedes aren't worth growing but turnips are, or maybe something like a forage rape? Kale?
Put a half measure of 2 brassicas in, we chose radish and leafy turnip but next time I'd maybe go for a globe turnip and kale mix

sunflower and cocksfoot, buckwheat and millet

maybe some annual clover and vetch, beans, lupin?

I like to put small rates of lots of things with the idea that half of them will fail to impress, then you can keep changing things out for new things and get a good low-input mix for your soil type and climate/needs.

We won't grow phacelia or buckwheat again because they came to SFA late sown, and probably would make more of a meal of bulbs oats sunflowers kale etc that will keep on growing as it gets cold.

Rob Garrett · Jul 5, 2020

jack6480 said:
a couple of goes I’ve had with sowing into old leys has been varied but I’m still trying.
Tried some stubble turnips onto sprayed off ley and they have come buy are patchy, where there was some loose soil from a drain being put in they were noticeably better. But it looked like moisture was the restriction from the dry weatherView attachment 892270

another one was westerwolds into old turf (after mowing) which I believe are doing well now!
View attachment 892271

I haven’t worked it all out yet but we are having a go!

Had similar challenges here in the past! Seem to remember someone saying something about sprayed off decomposing grass creating a chemical environment that prohibits seedling growth. Answer was to break the surface slightly i.e. go through with sward lifter/subsoiler/paraplough, then DD. Not tried it here but saw kale established that way on an AHDB/Germinal event, was growing well and retained good firm base for sheep's feet when grazing.

Bury the Trash · Jul 5, 2020

Rob Garrett said:
Had similar challenges here in the past! Seem to remember someone saying something about sprayed off decomposing grass creating a chemical environment that prohibits seedling growth. Answer was to break the surface slightly i.e. go through with sward lifter/subsoiler/paraplough, then DD. Not tried it here but saw kale established that way on an AHDB/Germinal event, was growing well and retained good firm base for sheep's feet when grazing.

Yeah , With out overcomplicating the thinking

... it's an acid that comes from the decaying material that the seed .... ling really doesn't like.
It's a hostile umviroment

thers way s around it tho. Of course.

I love it all as ........ the new growth / new beginning a of completely new plants...

#ilovegrowinnewstuff

BobTheSmallholder · Jul 5, 2020

I've been lurking the last while again as I have had an awful lot of different things on but as we are doing some reseeding trials atm thought I'd chime in!

Got a 22ac field that has been cut for silage for as long as anyone can remember with no real inputs so it is compacted to hell and full of rushes, daisies, buttercups etc to the point that you can stand in one spot and barely see any actual grass. It took 11 cows and 12 calves just 2 weeks to completely strip it of anything edible last autumn so 2 acres per day!

Initially the owner was looking at subsoiling, plowing, harrowing, seeding, rolling and locking it up for 6-9 months. I wanted to run pigs through it and reseed by hand each enclosure before the pigs moved on but that was a bit too left-field and we'd need a lot of pigs! I read a while ago one of Pete's experiments with power-harrowing the surface and reseeding to knock the grass back without killing soil biology and I'd raised this a few times with the land owner without much expectation.

One day I wasn't at the farm and he sent me some pictures of about an acre that he had power harrowed to kill the rushes and by heck did it work! Now we've had loads of rain the clover/buttercups/grass have come shooting back but less than 10% of the rushes have survived. If it hadn't been dry for months at the time we would have scattered some grass seed on there.

So now we have looked at our resources and we have:

2yrs of deep bedding from the cattle shed.
Power harrow, roller, subsoiler and tractor
Several bags of mixed grass/clover seed
Several bags of turnip/radish/forage crop seed

So the plan is to graze it down hard with the cattle over the next month, spread the composted muck, subsoil, power harrow, seed with a mix of everything, roll it and see what happens! The owner has also agreed to then mole in water pipe the full length of the field with 3-4 access points which will be a huge improvement. Hopefully this is the only field on the farm that needs such drastic attention as all the others grow much better grass and the rushes are much more manageable. The final step is going to be getting some goats next year so that we can use them as four legged rush removers.

I'm getting on really well with the electric fencing setup we bought, we've just ordered more polywire and posts so that I can backfence more as I haven't had enough to do it so far which has sucked as the cows strip everything closer to their water but don't want to eat stuff 100m+ away from the trough. I have been moving troughs where I can but only have 1x 70m hose. I think by backfencing and moving water we would have double the grass already.

Bury the Trash · Jul 5, 2020

BobTheSmallholder said:
I've been lurking the last while again as I have had an awful lot of different things on but as we are doing some reseeding trials atm thought I'd chime in!

Got a 22ac field that has been cut for silage for as long as anyone can remember with no real inputs so it is compacted to hell and full of rushes, daisies, buttercups etc to the point that you can stand in one spot and barely see any actual grass. It took 11 cows and 12 calves just 2 weeks to completely strip it of anything edible last autumn so 2 acres per day!

Initially the owner was looking at subsoiling, plowing, harrowing, seeding, rolling and locking it up for 6-9 months. I wanted to run pigs through it and reseed by hand each enclosure before the pigs moved on but that was a bit too left-field and we'd need a lot of pigs! I read a while ago one of Pete's experiments with power-harrowing the surface and reseeding to knock the grass back without killing soil biology and I'd raised this a few times with the land owner without much expectation.

One day I wasn't at the farm and he sent me some pictures of about an acre that he had power harrowed to kill the rushes and by heck did it work! Now we've had loads of rain the clover/buttercups/grass have come shooting back but less than 10% of the rushes have survived. If it hadn't been dry for months at the time we would have scattered some grass seed on there.

So now we have looked at our resources and we have:

2yrs of deep bedding from the cattle shed.
Power harrow, roller, subsoiler and tractor
Several bags of mixed grass/clover seed
Several bags of turnip/radish/forage crop seed

So the plan is to graze it down hard with the cattle over the next month, spread the composted muck, subsoil, power harrow, seed with a mix of everything, roll it and see what happens! The owner has also agreed to then mole in water pipe the full length of the field with 3-4 access points which will be a huge improvement. Hopefully this is the only field on the farm that needs such drastic attention as all the others grow much better grass and the rushes are much more manageable. The final step is going to be getting some goats next year so that we can use them as four legged rush removers.

I'm getting on really well with the electric fencing setup we bought, we've just ordered more polywire and posts so that I can backfence more as I haven't had enough to do it so far which has sucked as the cows strip everything closer to their water but don't want to eat stuff 100m+ away from the trough. I have been moving troughs where I can but only have 1x 70m hose. I think by backfencing and moving water we would have double the grass already.

The problem can be with working the ' rushes ground' up , is that the roots (rhizomes) and the seed thereabouts will regrow new ones in the disturbed soil , be aware.

Samcowman · Jul 5, 2020

Kiwi Pete said:
View attachment 892296
Today's TMR

I've been pondering your question @Samcowman and

drumroll

"it depends" to an extent on your soil/resource concerns

definitely: oats, radish if your main intent is to graze into the autumn as they'll help relieve the top few inches from mob-stocking late on - one will regrow the other will decompose. Maybe barley as well?

what brassicas grow well, here something like swedes aren't worth growing but turnips are, or maybe something like a forage rape? Kale?
Put a half measure of 2 brassicas in, we chose radish and leafy turnip but next time I'd maybe go for a globe turnip and kale mix

sunflower and cocksfoot, buckwheat and millet

maybe some annual clover and vetch, beans, lupin?

I like to put small rates of lots of things with the idea that half of them will fail to impress, then you can keep changing things out for new things and get a good low-input mix for your soil type and climate/needs.

We won't grow phacelia or buckwheat again because they came to SFA late sown, and probably would make more of a meal of bulbs oats sunflowers kale etc that will keep on growing as it gets cold.

Thanks Pete. I did this sort of thing last year on a small arable field after rape and the cattle loved the rape volunteers. I also had peas in there which did fairly well.
This field will be different as it’s old pasture now and I will be grazing it later.
Had a dig around today and the soil needs air in it. There’s lots of rusty deposits in there without actually having a compaction layer. So will be looking for big roots to help aerate it more.
I will be speaking the the seedsman tomorrow to see what’s available at sensible prices.

Rob Garrett · Jul 5, 2020

BobTheSmallholder said:
I've been lurking the last while again as I have had an awful lot of different things on but as we are doing some reseeding trials atm thought I'd chime in!

Got a 22ac field that has been cut for silage for as long as anyone can remember with no real inputs so it is compacted to hell and full of rushes, daisies, buttercups etc to the point that you can stand in one spot and barely see any actual grass. It took 11 cows and 12 calves just 2 weeks to completely strip it of anything edible last autumn so 2 acres per day!

Initially the owner was looking at subsoiling, plowing, harrowing, seeding, rolling and locking it up for 6-9 months. I wanted to run pigs through it and reseed by hand each enclosure before the pigs moved on but that was a bit too left-field and we'd need a lot of pigs! I read a while ago one of Pete's experiments with power-harrowing the surface and reseeding to knock the grass back without killing soil biology and I'd raised this a few times with the land owner without much expectation.

One day I wasn't at the farm and he sent me some pictures of about an acre that he had power harrowed to kill the rushes and by heck did it work! Now we've had loads of rain the clover/buttercups/grass have come shooting back but less than 10% of the rushes have survived. If it hadn't been dry for months at the time we would have scattered some grass seed on there.

So now we have looked at our resources and we have:

2yrs of deep bedding from the cattle shed.
Power harrow, roller, subsoiler and tractor
Several bags of mixed grass/clover seed
Several bags of turnip/radish/forage crop seed

So the plan is to graze it down hard with the cattle over the next month, spread the composted muck, subsoil, power harrow, seed with a mix of everything, roll it and see what happens! The owner has also agreed to then mole in water pipe the full length of the field with 3-4 access points which will be a huge improvement. Hopefully this is the only field on the farm that needs such drastic attention as all the others grow much better grass and the rushes are much more manageable. The final step is going to be getting some goats next year so that we can use them as four legged rush removers.

I'm getting on really well with the electric fencing setup we bought, we've just ordered more polywire and posts so that I can backfence more as I haven't had enough to do it so far which has sucked as the cows strip everything closer to their water but don't want to eat stuff 100m+ away from the trough. I have been moving troughs where I can but only have 1x 70m hose. I think by backfencing and moving water we would have double the grass already.

Loving the sound of all that. Shame the pig option wasn't a goer. Had pigs on some rush infested ground here a few years back, they uprooted every clump! That said, wherever we had pigs we now have docks!

Thinking; would now be good time to soil test, see if it needs a bit of lime before powerharrowing?

BobTheSmallholder · Jul 5, 2020

Rob Garrett said:
Loving the sound of all that. Shame the pig option wasn't a goer. Had pigs on some rush infested ground here a few years back, they uprooted every clump! That said, wherever we had pigs we now have docks!

Thinking; would now be good time to soil test, see if it needs a bit of lime before powerharrowing?

It definitely could do with lime, unfortunately we just cant afford it as would be £3-4k easily. The farm currently makes a loss and is subsidised with external income, the mission this year is to do as much as physically possible with available resources to make it profitable so that things like lime can be bought-in in the future.

Whitewalker · Jul 5, 2020

BobTheSmallholder said:
It definitely could do with lime, unfortunately we just cant afford it as would be £3-4k easily. The farm currently makes a loss and is subsidised with external income, the mission this year is to do as much as physically possible with available resources to make it profitable so that things like lime can be bought-in in the future.

According to Nicole masters , the love of soil she recommends tickling the soil with things to nudge it . So small amount of lime and feeding the microbes at the same time , so I have bought granulated lime for small applications and also considering milk diluted also as a trialling

Rob Garrett · Jul 5, 2020

BobTheSmallholder said:
It definitely could do with lime, unfortunately we just cant afford it as would be £3-4k easily. The farm currently makes a loss and is subsidised with external income, the mission this year is to do as much as physically possible with available resources to make it profitable so that things like lime can be bought-in in the future.

Could you do just a small area of liming if it needs it? I have a load of Mag Lime tipped up by the muck heap each year and either incorporate with muck when loading spreader or tip a loader bucket full on bedding before mucking out (also sprinkle some around cattle crush and scraper passage before weighing/TB testing, helps stop everyone slipping around) £16.80/t delivered, 16t load £268.80 + the vodka and tonic. Tried both ground & screened lime, prefer slightly more expensive ground as quicker results my thinks but not scientific in any way! Would rather spend in lime than fert. or new seed.

BobTheSmallholder · Jul 5, 2020

Rob Garrett said:
Could you do just a small area of liming if it needs it? I have a load of Mag Lime tipped up by the muck heap each year and either incorporate with muck when loading spreader or tip a loader bucket full on bedding before mucking out (also sprinkle some around cattle crush and scraper passage before weighing/TB testing, helps stop everyone slipping around) £16.80/t delivered, 16t load £268.80 + the vodka and tonic. Tried both ground & screened lime, prefer slightly more expensive ground as quicker results my thinks but not scientific in any way! Would rather spend in lime than fert. or new seed.

Hmm I hadn't thought about getting some tipped into the muck heap before spreading, that would save a lot on specialist spreading costs. I'll definitely mention it to the owner tomorrow and see if hes willing to spend on a couple of lorry loads.

jack6480 · Jul 5, 2020

So if you boys had 10 acres of very old grass ley and you wanted to spruce it up! It is very thistly and unproductive.
Would you graze hard, sow turnips,mustard, some sort of fast growing clover? Red maybe? Or berseem. let that romp away then graze that hard again and then drill your new seeds in the next spring?
this what I’m currently thinking. I have CAN fert available to I don’t know if that would act as a neutraliser?

"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

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