CHINA

Martin Holden

Member
Trade
Location
Cheltenham
The rhetoric coming from China over the Hong Kong situation seems to be intensifying. Their ambassador to the UK has stated that offering Hong Kong citizens a UK passport is “gross interference”. He has also allegedly stated that if the UK pulls out of the Huawei deal “it will send a bad message to Chinese companies”. I know it’s all political sabre rattling but China is flexing its muscles. Do we need China?? I’m sure the USA would like to see them less commercially dominant. Discuss!
 

kiwi pom

Member
Location
canterbury NZ
They do seem to be a bit salty at the moment.
Australia's just announced big military spending and seems to be falling out with them. America is all screwed up at the moment, who knows what they will be like after the election.
I've said for years, one day Australia and NZ will have to pick a side.
You do wonder if China have big plans while everyone is distracted by the virus.
 

stewart

Member
Horticulture
Location
Bay of Plenty NZ
They do seem to be a bit salty at the moment.
Australia's just announced big military spending and seems to be falling out with them. America is all screwed up at the moment, who knows what they will be like after the election.
I've said for years, one day Australia and NZ will have to pick a side.
You do wonder if China have big plans while everyone is distracted by the virus.
Australia and NZ both rely quite heavily on Asia, particularly China, China is now our biggest export market, double that of the US of A, we also have a positive trade balance with them.
I don't see us as having to pick a side, we can continue to trade with both.
 

Lowland1

Member
Mixed Farmer
If China wants to bring down the U.K government all it has to do is call their bluff and let them hand out the passports. The population of the U.K will not be best pleased at the possibility of several million Chinese migrants heading their way. Limiting Chinas economic power by buying less will just make them look to cheer up their population in other ways like invading Taiwan or adding bits of India to China. Any attempt to reduce Chinese influence will have to be done in a non confrontational manner such as attempting to revive our own manufacturing industries rather than outsourcing.
 

Banana Bar

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Bury St Edmunds
If China wants to bring down the U.K government all it has to do is call their bluff and let them hand out the passports. The population of the U.K will not be best pleased at the possibility of several million Chinese migrants heading their way. Limiting Chinas economic power by buying less will just make them look to cheer up their population in other ways like invading Taiwan or adding bits of India to China. Any attempt to reduce Chinese influence will have to be done in a non confrontational manner such as attempting to revive our own manufacturing industries rather than outsourcing.

I was having this exact conversation yesterday. If China say jump we’ll bloody well do it unless we can revive a largely disappeared manufacturing industry.

BB
 

robs1

Member
I was having this exact conversation yesterday. If China say jump we’ll bloody well do it unless we can revive a largely disappeared manufacturing industry.

BB
We are still the 7th or 8th biggest manufacturing country in the world, but with brexit we have the opportunity to do much better and invest in making more consumer goods.
The world needs to look back at history and see what happens when you appease countries that have expansionist ideas, it ends badly. The whole world needs to stand together on China and do it now. Their economy is based on exports if cheap sh!t without those exports their standard of living will falter that is the worlds weapon to rein them in.
 

Exfarmer

Member
Location
Bury St Edmunds
There is no way we can start making mass produced consumer goods as we did in the past , unless we go down the path some companies are following in Leicester.
The best hope is that India picks up a lot of the work that China is now doing.
China’s sabre rattling is partly based on their knowledge the current boom they have had cannot last for ever. Most dictatorships eventually either run aground or fade away.
when China’s boom ends, they are going to need something to unify the country and the classic one is an expansionist phase, based on historic empires etc.
Taiwan is the most obvious target and the Chinese government has been doing work on this front for many years, gradually isolating the country from the world sphere, demanding that other countries treat it as part of China and not an independent state. It will in time demand that Taiwan is returned as first the Rhineland then the Sudetenland were annexed.
The Chinese know currently that most of the world would standby saying there is little we can do. Thenit would probably be the turn of the Vietnamese, who rightly own the Spratley Islands which are reputed to contain a vast oil reserve.
 
Err, China are not the only manufacturing game in town by a long shot. Lots of others in that marketplace and lots of others trying to get a start in it, too. Indonesia, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, parts of South America and Africa.

The idea of the UK magically becoming a big manufacturer again is probably impossible in all likelihood. UK does very well in low volume and specialist stuff which runs in tandem to the UK being a home of many cutting edge companies involved in R and D. Government needs to keep these companies going and get them ahead of the curve.

Speaking at a national level there is little or no future in a the nation trying to create or sustain hordes of low-tech jobs, we couldn't find bodies to do these jobs before the pandemic emerged and they will also be the jobs best suited to replacement by robots or AI in future.
 
China will be ‘the’ super power when all this is done. They’ve been slowly and quietly building up to this status. Transport Covid all over the world resulting in crashOMG of other economies. Run the WHO almost exclusively with their own input. They are going to come out on top soon enough. They’ve built islands for military bases in the South China sea. What kind of country builds military islands? Assert dominance on Hong Kong. All any other country will do is state ‘we don’t approve’. When they take Taiwan there’ll be a collective ‘we don’t approve’. It’s scary
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
The simple truth is that China needs the rest of the world a hell of a lot more than it needs China.

A lot of croaking and bizarre ideas expressed in this thread; Oz and NZ will always 'side' with the Anglophone world in particular and the 'West' in general - but that doesn't need to stop them trading as appropriate.

Manufacturing can and will pick up / restart in the UK, but it won't be to the extent of post-war levels; probably something like early 70s levels, but rationally done this time. The rest will be done, as mentioned by others, in countries with currently good and improving manufacturing bases.

The problem China has is that its dictatorship really thinks it can sh!t on the rest of the world as it does upon its own people. And it can't. :)
 

Lowland1

Member
Mixed Farmer
The simple truth is that China needs the rest of the world a hell of a lot more than it needs China.

A lot of croaking and bizarre ideas expressed in this thread; Oz and NZ will always 'side' with the Anglophone world in particular and the 'West' in general - but that doesn't need to stop them trading as appropriate.

Manufacturing can and will pick up / restart in the UK, but it won't be to the extent of post-war levels; probably something like early 70s levels, but rationally done this time. The rest will be done, as mentioned by others, in countries with currently good and improving manufacturing bases.

The problem China has is that its dictatorship really thinks it can sh!t on the rest of the world as it does upon its own people. And it can't. :)
Democracy. Very overrated just ask the average Iraqi or Libyan in the street what people need is for their basic neccesities to be fulfilled as long as that's the case most people don't care if it's Boris or Adolf in charge. The problem comes when people start to go hungry if jobs start drying up. In a democracy we have an election in a dictatorship things are a bit different.
 

7610 super q

Never Forgotten
Honorary Member
They do seem to be a bit salty at the moment.
Australia's just announced big military spending and seems to be falling out with them. America is all screwed up at the moment, who knows what they will be like after the election.
I've said for years, one day Australia and NZ will have to pick a side.
You do wonder if China have big plans while everyone is distracted by the virus.
Distracted by the virus that they started........
 

Martin Holden

Member
Trade
Location
Cheltenham
The simple truth is that China needs the rest of the world a hell of a lot more than it needs China.

A lot of croaking and bizarre ideas expressed in this thread; Oz and NZ will always 'side' with the Anglophone world in particular and the 'West' in general - but that doesn't need to stop them trading as appropriate.

Manufacturing can and will pick up / restart in the UK, but it won't be to the extent of post-war levels; probably something like early 70s levels, but rationally done this time. The rest will be done, as mentioned by others, in countries with currently good and improving manufacturing bases.

The problem China has is that its dictatorship really thinks it can sh!t on the rest of the world as it does upon its own people. And it can't. :)
If the main markets for Chinese goods switched to other suppliers how would China cope then? The theories about china sea area domination are a threat for sure. A nation used to big trade and losing a significant % of it is a dangerous “animal”. I wonder what the Russians think of all this? As ever the world “ticks along” until the next crisis.
 

Ashtree

Member
The simple truth is that China needs the rest of the world a hell of a lot more than it needs China.

A lot of croaking and bizarre ideas expressed in this thread; Oz and NZ will always 'side' with the Anglophone world in particular and the 'West' in general - but that doesn't need to stop them trading as appropriate.

Manufacturing can and will pick up / restart in the UK, but it won't be to the extent of post-war levels; probably something like early 70s levels, but rationally done this time. The rest will be done, as mentioned by others, in countries with currently good and improving manufacturing bases.

The problem China has is that its dictatorship really thinks it can sh!t on the rest of the world as it does upon its own people. And it can't. :)

So what's the definition of the west in general these days? It’s anything now but a solid coherent block. USA can no longer be expected or trusted to be the kingpin of a western alliance. Putin has waged the most effective war in history, by fomenting division within western powers and between western powers. All without firing a bullet.
Aus / NZ, would be foolish not to create a plan B.
 

arcobob

Member
Location
Norfolk
I cannot see that knee jerk reactions by governments will prove useful. When the public have decided to avoid buying Chinese crap the Chinese will have nobody to blame but themselves. The problem is that many products labelled "made in Germany" or other valued manufacturing centres are stuffed full of Chinese components. Legislation should not allow that to happen and in such cases it should state "assembled in".
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
Democracy. Very overrated just ask the average Iraqi or Libyan in the street what people need is for their basic neccesities to be fulfilled as long as that's the case most people don't care if it's Boris or Adolf in charge. The problem comes when people start to go hungry if jobs start drying up. In a democracy we have an election in a dictatorship things are a bit different.
You live in a pseudo-democracy, and most there don't know it. Dictatorships work when they work, when they don't the only remedy is a revolution. Democracy wins every time when it's a genuine one.

If the main markets for Chinese goods switched to other suppliers how would China cope then? The theories about china sea area domination are a threat for sure. A nation used to big trade and losing a significant % of it is a dangerous “animal”. I wonder what the Russians think of all this? As ever the world “ticks along” until the next crisis.
I agree in part. But China is a danger to all; even Russia, which revels in the difficulties China makes for others, has grave concerns due to its hugely populated neighbour. China will not begin any aggression it is not absolutely certain it will win, dictatorships don't suffer defeats and survive.

So what's the definition of the west in general these days? It’s anything now but a solid coherent block. USA can no longer be expected or trusted to be the kingpin of a western alliance. Putin has waged the most effective war in history, by fomenting division within western powers and between western powers. All without firing a bullet.
Aus / NZ, would be foolish not to create a plan B.
The only problem with all that is that it's wrong. The democracies stick together when push comes to shove, Putin is dancing on a knife edge - and everyone knows this - and only stays in power in Russia with the threat of bullets.

Surely you can't really be suggesting that Oz and NZ should get in to bed with an overwhelmingly larger economic block that will also seek to suborn their democracies, where on Earth can a good Irishman have got an idea like that? :unsure:

I cannot see that knee jerk reactions by governments will prove useful. When the public have decided to avoid buying Chinese crap the Chinese will have nobody to blame but themselves. The problem is that many products labelled "made in Germany" or other valued manufacturing centres are stuffed full of Chinese components. Legislation should not allow that to happen and in such cases it should state "assembled in".
All true, but watch Huawei start to be rejected globally and others manufacture the necessary. We and others in the West will expand production, there are many counties in the East - Vietnam, Thailand, the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Japan etc.* - all have the ability and capacity to increase production. Most probably we'll see big innovation investment by the wealthier West, followed by production in the East.


*all more than happy to see China reined in and make a profit in so doing.
 
The rhetoric coming from China over the Hong Kong situation seems to be intensifying. Their ambassador to the UK has stated that offering Hong Kong citizens a UK passport is “gross interference”. He has also allegedly stated that if the UK pulls out of the Huawei deal “it will send a bad message to Chinese companies”. I know it’s all political sabre rattling but China is flexing its muscles. Do we need China?? I’m sure the USA would like to see them less commercially dominant. Discuss!


Aren't you interested in how and WHY China has so much power today ?

Billionaires - a lot from the USA - have made China into the power it is today. Not only with their money but also technical know how.

It isn't a "Mistake" that money, power & technology is in China and not elsewhere in the world.
 
So what's the definition of the west in general these days? It’s anything now but a solid coherent block. USA can no longer be expected or trusted to be the kingpin of a western alliance. Putin has waged the most effective war in history, by fomenting division within western powers and between western powers. All without firing a bullet.
Aus / NZ, would be foolish not to create a plan B.


Putin is the result of those in the West that sought to destroy Russia in the Gorbachev era.

Russians saw the bread queues and Oligarchs and chose Putin to fix the mess.

And they've chosen right.
 
*all more than happy to see China reined in and make a profit in so doing.


For that to happen all the Billionares invested in China will need to change their minds.

I don't see that happening for 10+ years even if they wanted to.

Regardless the damage caused by the "investment" and transfer of technology has cemented China as a very significant force perhaps challenging the USA for dominance.

The UK doesn't even have the psychology in Westminster to do anything other than use money to attempt to raise another country on a pedastil. Westminster will never train and cherish UK peoples .. they'd rather die IMHO.

Case in point using India for satellites rather than creating a home grown industry .. Westminster thinks cheap - cheap - cheap 24/7/365 - but pays in lack of taxes and dwindling influence.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

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    Votes: 77 43.5%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 62 35.0%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 28 15.8%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 4 2.3%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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