Wilder Britain ...

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
even without the subterranean bit Badgers still would be a challenge for wolves as compared to calves sheep,goats Fawns hedge hogs domestic cats small dogs ...theres a long list....of far easier targets

No, no, no! I’ll think you’ll find that no wolves will be released before they have read @GeorgeC1 ‘s ‘experts’ report, and signed to say that they won’t touch farmed livestock.
 
No, no, no! I’ll think you’ll find that no wolves will be released before they have read @GeorgeC1 ‘s ‘experts’ report, and signed to say that they won’t touch farmed livestock.

..... and of course they will be fitted with the latest sat nav collar trackers, which will electronically keep them confined to the land onto which they were originally rewilded.
 

Humble Village Farmer

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Essex
Anyone who thinks any apex predator is simply going to pass by a field of nice tasty lambs or cattle in easy to catch 5 acre fields, to dig up a b badger to eat is sadly deluded, and has no idea how animals hunt to survive, perhaps the rewilders will have to rip up the enclosure act, and accept livestock guardian dogs as part of life as a consequence. Worlds apart from reality.
I'm not sadly deluded on that score and would be seriously worried about keeping livestock in such an environment. I'm not sure I would fancy walking out on my own in certain circumstances either.
Youve still not explained any advantage to sheep farmers of having apex predators or why they should be reintroduced in the first place
If the 'inefficient' businesses fold and there are no sheep what do the predators eat or are we supposed to keep farming to provide food for something that you've decided would be a good idea to reintroduce. Your arrogance is beyond belief.
I think in George's defence, he hasn't decided anything. Please don't call him arrogant, it's not part of the debate, or is irrelevant anyway.
 

Anymulewilldo

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cheshire
Well I think it's a brilliant idea. Re introduce wolves and Lynxtoo our woodlands. While we're at it extend the right to roam so everyone can see these wonderful creatures in nature.






BUT.
When someone's child or pets are killed by an apex predator with no reason to fear man (because they would never experience being hunted by man). I want the people responsible for the release to be stood on a stage, shown the mutilated bodies and forced too tell the parents or owners that it's ok. They were here a thousand years ago when the population was much smaller. It's natural. Personally I'd sit on my boundary with the rifle waiting.
 
I'm not sadly deluded on that score and would be seriously worried about keeping livestock in such an environment. I'm not sure I would fancy walking out on my own in certain circumstances either.

I think in George's defence, he hasn't decided anything. Please don't call him arrogant, it's not part of the debate, or is irrelevant anyway.

Oh, so you are in favour of releasing wolves provided it won't affect your livestock or your enjoyment of walking around the countryside?
 
Well I think it's a brilliant idea. Re introduce wolves and Lynxtoo our woodlands. While we're at it extend the right to roam so everyone can see these wonderful creatures in nature.






BUT.
When someone's child or pets are killed by an apex predator with no reason to fear man (because they would never experience being hunted by man). I want the people responsible for the release to be stood on a stage, shown the mutilated bodies and forced too tell the parents or owners that it's ok. They were here a thousand years ago when the population was much smaller. It's natural. Personally I'd sit on my boundary with the rifle waiting.

There is plenty of youtube footage of wildcats and other predators taking family pets as a snack in the dead of night. Happens around the world with alarming regularity.

The assumption seems to be that these big predators avoid man completely. That is not the case as many people in North America will attest to. When times turn tough, they actually become drawn to humans and their locale. This is even found in places like India where big cats are not hard to spot near human settlements and they have even attacked people. The idea that some recently released predator is never going to find itself in proximity to man is foolhardy as it will invariably result in them being shot due to the danger/nuisance they cause.
 

unlacedgecko

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Fife
Getting back to the subject of the original post, is there anyone who would object to Golden Eagles re-expanding their range back to Wales without human assistance? (or persecution)


Daft thing to write on a public forum... :banghead:

Hunting badgers with terriers is perfectly legal across mainland Europe. My Hungarian friends think it’s hilarious the U.K. protects a badger so.

Any and all badger hunting I’ve done has been in places where it’s legal, as part of my annual pilgrimages to Budapest.
 
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Bald Rick

Moderator
Livestock Farmer
Location
Anglesey
Are you saying that mink were reintroduced? I don't think they are native to Britain and I don't know anyone who thinks their release has been good for the natural environment for the reasons you have highlighted. I could be wrong.

You are quite correct that the mink were introduced rather than reintroduced but it is an outstanding example of something that has got out of control and my guess is that if wolves were reintroduced, they could ultimately have the same effect.

However, the real question of any reintroduction has to be:

What is the purpose?
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
Hunting badgers with terriers is perfectly legal across mainland Europe. My Hungarian friends think it’s hilarious the U.K. protects a badger so.

Any and all badger hunting I’ve done has been in places where it’s legal, as part of my annual pilgrimages to Budapest.
How lovely for you; do you like it most when they squeal in terror or agony? :unsure:
 

Humble Village Farmer

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Essex
Oh, so you are in favour of releasing wolves provided it won't affect your livestock or your enjoyment of walking around the countryside?
I don't think I have said I am in favour of releasing wolves into the uk, but I find ecosystems and wildlife fascinating. As I said earlier, some things would be very different with wolves around. Some good some bad.
 

egbert

Member
Livestock Farmer
I haven't had much to do with this thread - it's all been chewed over before.

But since we're here....
I've come to realise that the rewilding lobby is largely made up of an urban sub-conscious guilt-fed desire to right the wrongs of modern humanity (at least, those wrongs to do with destroying eco-systems - which is what billions of humans living modern lives will inevitably do)
And as it's hard to kick yourself up the erse, they look for someone else to kick.
To trample over a few barely solvent hill sheep farmers is rather easier than challenging HS2, or the whole 'jetting off for a weeks sun' thing, or the passive acceptance of hundreds of thousands of new houses and all their infrastructure being built on green field sites

In short, desiring rewilding in the UK is mostly a fantasy carried by people far removed from the dirt.

There are a few specific cases I'd hear out - such as pine martens being used to control grey squizzers.
But the rights of land managers alongside such projects should come first...including the absolute right to control unwanted straying...'with extreme prejudice', as they say.

However, the mindset oft ignorantly carries on into apex predators.
And as some of you know, I've travelled and herded beasts with mainland European stockmen who are losing their livestock right now, and whole cultures are under direct threat.
Whole hills/mountains have been abandoned after centuries of trad livestock culture.
I'm in contact with yet more, and the daily photos are just godawful.
Wolves don't just 'help keep the deer down'...they rip open whatever is easiest to catch, and eat the juiciest bits.
There have been a spate of sheep attacks in 2-3 mountains ranges this summer where dozens of sheep have been disembowelled in this fashion at one time.

Wolves also very good at catching and eating domestic dogs. videos of them slipping into night time streets and taking pets from backyards are particularly unsettling.
It isn't without reason that folklore and linguistics from times when they were common make such a big thing about wolves.

Obviously, there is uproar within the countries worst effected, and the photos are pretty good at showing the rewilding imbeciles what their fantasy means in reality. However, the desire persists, and is pushed on by moneyed interests.
Our biggest specific problem here has been Gove and his bluesky thinking club.
The dodgy appointments of people who share these fantasies is likely going to lead us (and I mean those of us who are deeply immersed in livestock farming and commercial land management) into very ugly conflict with various elements of the lobby.
It's esp ironic that some of Goves dodgy appointments - and when they've seemingly donated funds shortly before getting top gov posts, I regard that as dodgy- are folk who've made squillions from industries rather more damaging to the environment than my yows up on the hill.
Hypocritical scum is a reasonable term in this instance.

Their ignorance is going to result in very real strife.
 

unlacedgecko

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Fife
How lovely for you; do you like it most when they squeal in terror or agony? :unsure:

Why would they squeal in terror or agony?

Off topic, but the job of the terrier is to locate the badger and keep it in place, not fight the badger. The terrier does this by barking. Once the badger is dug down to its killed with a shotgun to the head.

There is no badger baiting. Such unethical practices would quickly earn censure from the local hunt master and probably result in suspension of hunting license.

It's ethical non toxic pest control with zero chance of wounding. Many times the badger is also eaten.

The dogs are at greater risk when we hunt wild boar.
 
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Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
Why would they squeal in terror or agony?

Off topic, but the job of the terrier is to locate the badger and keep it in place, not fight the badger. The terrier does this by barking. Once the badger is dug down to its killed with a shotgun to the head.

There is no badger baiting. Such unethical practices would quickly earn censure from the local hunt master and probably result in suspension of hunting license.

It's ethical non toxic pest control with zero chance of wounding. Many times the badger is also eaten.

The dogs are at greater risk when we hunt wild boar.
Because cornered, terrified animals do; and you didn't nswer my question.

You'll have to post some start-to-finish videos of your 'humane' exploits before I'll believe in the lack of suffering you claim - to be clear, is it no suffering or just very little?

I've no problem with culling, shooting them cleanly, and it would be a lot less effort than digging down to them, but I guess it would be less fun for you and your chums too.

I hunted with hounds a lot when I was young and - for reasons of jurisprudence - I'd not see it illegal, but it is cruelty for fun, plain and simple. That written, there are very good arguments for its continuance from an evolutionary perspective.
 

Humble Village Farmer

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Essex
Can anyone give a list of the actual benefits of releasing these apex predators, and I don't need some wishy washy drivel about ' improving ecosystems', attracting tourism, etc
How are they going to improve an ecosystem? Explain propoerly and in detail. Whats the matter with the ecosystem. Why does it need changing? and in whose opinion?
How are they going to benefit tourism? How many people will really want to tramp around in bracken and rushes in the hope of spotting a wolf or a lynx? How will that benefit the local community? The thought of these 'lovely wild animals ' is fine if you live many miles away from the consequences. I often wonder what proportion of paid up members of the RSPB actually go out of their own gardens to look at birds.
Hard facts is what is needed not just some pie in the sky ideas of somebody who sits in an office and likes the thought (and the money) of some rural zoo in what is a grossly overpopulated small island.
The best example is of the reintroduction of wolves to the Yellowstone national park in America. Lots been written about that and the effect on the ecosystem
 

brigadoon

Member
Location
Galloway
The best example is of the reintroduction of wolves to the Yellowstone national park in America. Lots been written about that and the effect on the ecosystem
Ok no worries - once you have persuaded the government to buy 900,000Ha in one parcel and moved all the occupants out give us a shout:-

THE ACT OF DEDICATION[31]
AN ACT to set apart a certain tract of land lying near the headwaters of the Yellowstone River as a public park. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the tract of land in the Territories of Montana and Wyoming ... is hereby reserved and withdrawn from settlement, occupancy, or sale under the laws of the United States, and dedicated and set apart as a public park or pleasuring ground for the benefit and enjoyment of the people; and all persons who shall locate, or settle upon, or occupy the same or any part thereof, except as hereinafter provided, shall be considered trespassers and removed there from ...
Approved March 1, 1872.
Signed by:
 

Tubbylew

Member
Location
Herefordshire
The best example is of the reintroduction of wolves to the Yellowstone national park in America. Lots been written about that and the effect on the ecosystem
It's like comparing apples to eggs though, yellowstone is 8991sq km with a few thousand people living there, north yorkshire is 8654 sq km with 1,158,816 people in 2019 north york moors national park receives nearly 8 million visitors annually, where yellostone only get 4 million, don't get me wrong i'm reasonably openminded about re introduction of some species, provided me and mine, are given sufficient recourse to deal with the problems that come with it. What I do take issue with, is the thought by the rewilders that trying to wind the ecological clock back is some kind of silver bullet to wipe all mankinds ills, it's dangerously naive.
 

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