If you tell lies you'll get caught out eventually

M-J-G · Aug 26, 2020

neilo said:
I’m more confused than ever. You guys take the ‘bloodlines’ into account, but the ‘pedigree of an animal’ is made up?

If his pedigree is made up so are a huge chunk of his EBVs.

M-J-G · Aug 26, 2020

egbert said:
Go on...post the poll!

I'm happy to use the pedigree as a background guide.
One of the breeds I erse about with has few enough members/herds that I can unravel a lot of the years offerings at the show and sale before I ever rock up.

And when a newbie showed me a bulls pedigree lately, I was able to point out several absolute shockers in its background.
(for there are those yet who imagine winning a championship at a poorly attended show, under that well known judge 'Blind Pugh'...makes a bull worthy of great things)

Very few animals that win shows are ever the type of animal I'd entertain the idea of having at home.
I often laugh at those who stand watching who wins a show like it is actually of any relevance.

M-J-G · Aug 26, 2020

Woolless said:
Just thinking about this, could there be an opportunity here? Perhaps if the bull in questions true BB parentage was established, it could be the start of a cross-breed EBV evaluation of beef cattle? Every cloud and all that. Just reading Sarah Pick's very good Nuffield report last night and she was suggesting exactly that.

I've suggested crossbred EBVs, across breed EBVs and commercial data collection for 20 years, but a lot of pedigree people don't like the idea of it.

livestock 1 · Aug 26, 2020

When I buy a limmy bull I look back to how he’s bred. I would need to see him going back in the breeding to one of a few good limmy bulls before I would consider him. This is almost as important as how he looks. Crossed bulls are usually a gamble on mainly looks.

egbert · Aug 26, 2020

M-J-G said:
Very few animals that win shows are ever the type of animal I'd entertain the idea of having at home.
I often laugh at those who stand watching who wins a show like it is actually of any relevance.

On the contrary, i enjoy watching the odd show- with one of the breeds I keep.
It doesn't bother me that you might be laughing at my stupidity.

I follow some pedigree herds that show, and it's useful to be able to see what they're bringing out.
It's all part of the package.
Equally, there are herds that show from whom I'd never buy, based on what they present...even though they often with prizes.

Another breed I keep, I seldom- almost never- take much interest in the show circuit, as the beasts shown are fed on a plane vastly different to my own beasts, and what is being dragged round the ring might as well be a different breed.
I do occasionally buy a bull from one or two herds that show, but it's co-incidental.

neilo · Aug 26, 2020

Top Tip. said:
I remember years ago in Stirling at the blackface tup sale going into a certain breeders pen and asking the breeder how is he bred ,the answer I got was how do you want him bred. I respected him for his honesty.

I got wind of a Charollais sheep breeder thad followed the same principles some years ago. I made a mental note to avoid their stock like the plague. If they are dishonest about something as intrinsic as an animal’s pedigree, would you trust them on anything else?

Top Tip. · Aug 26, 2020

neilo said:
I got wind of a Charollais sheep breeder thad followed the same principles some years ago. I made a mental note to avoid their stock like the plague. If they are dishonest about something as intrinsic as an animal’s pedigree, would you trust them on anything else?

I took it that he was being honest with me in that he didn’t have a clue,others would have trotted out a pedigree but he at least faced up.

NZDan · Aug 31, 2020

neilo said:
Good save.??

An extensive DNA sampling program would stop all such shenanigans no doubt, but the economics of sheep production wouldn’t stand it. Do the majority of ram buyers even value that integrity, when judgement is usually based on what a ram looks like when it hits sale day?
I would suggest variation within any breed is a good thing, allowing sheep to be bred to suit different systems and areas/climates, and also meaning a diversity of bloodlines are available in future. I do have an issue with the small numbers of breeders that diversify that gene pool further by bringing in other breeds, and then selling them as something they are not.?

Why would any one buy from a breeder they didn't trust?

egbert · Aug 31, 2020

NZDan said:
Why would any one buy from a breeder they didn't trust?

Hmm.
I've bought tups from folk who I wouldn't trust morally further than I could throw them...and know damn well that they'd be dishonest in presentation.
But equally, one or two I can think of are also outstanding judges of stock, and have lifelong commitment to their flocks.

Doesn't always work out, but then...what does?

shearerlad · Aug 31, 2020

Top Tip. said:
I remember years ago in Stirling at the blackface tup sale going into a certain breeders pen and asking the breeder how is he bred ,the answer I got was how do you want him bred. I respected him for his honesty.

Tup’s father could well of been a whole lugged roughy tup with brock heid that burst through the fence from the thousand acres of FC ground for a night of passion with the “good ewes”

NZDan · Aug 31, 2020

Top Tip. said:
To follow that to its natural conclusion would mean that ebvs are worthless because if you were to use that cs calf as your bull it’s ebvs would be a complete misrepresentation of that animal, or am I missing something?

I'm involved in a sheep progeny test involving 17 rams from 15 different flocks and 12 different breeds, all were performance recorded. Pretty much all of the rams performed close to what was expected based on there existing BVs, the rams that did move on some traits were from poorly linked flocks.
There have been two other published trials done here in NZ one sheep and one cattle, in both cases the bulls and rams performed as their BVs would indicate I thing the relationship was about 75% accurate.

NZDan · Aug 31, 2020

Johngee said:
You can’t register them after a year old I’m afraid. The only thing you could (which we have done in the past) is register her as a base cow, although her descendants won’t ever be regarded as full pedigree, just graded up.

Is that because they become less pure after they're one year old?

NZDan · Aug 31, 2020

muleman said:
It doesnt tell you everything...but it tells you a bit along with the bulls bloodlines ....and theyve all been stuffed with feed so you dont get any surprises there, use him sparingly the first year, look after him and get him acclimatised to the real world and he should be fine.

Why would you use him sparingly? If a sire is not fit to be used properly, he is not fit to buy.

muleman · Aug 31, 2020

NZDan said:
Why would you use him sparingly? If a sire is not fit to be used properly, he is not fit to buy.

Use him sparingly till he has acclimatised to the real world after being on his pumped up pre sale diet!

tepapa · Aug 31, 2020

muleman said:
Use him sparingly till he has acclimatised to the real world after being on his pumped up pre sale diet!

Just shows how disjointed the industry is. The supposedly best stock is bred in such a way that it needs acclimatised before it can be used in its intended environment.

M-J-G · Aug 31, 2020

NZDan said:
I'm involved in a sheep progeny test involving 17 rams from 15 different flocks and 12 different breeds, all were performance recorded. Pretty much all of the rams performed close to what was expected based on there existing BVs, the rams that did move on some traits were from poorly linked flocks.
There have been two other published trials done here in NZ one sheep and one cattle, in both cases the bulls and rams performed as their BVs would indicate I thing the relationship was about 75% accurate.

Is your progeny testing work being done on sheep in the UK?

muleman · Aug 31, 2020

tepapa said:
Just shows how disjointed the industry is. The supposedly best stock is bred in such a way that it needs acclimatised to before it can be used in its intended environment.

Cant argue with that, im just saying it as it is.

NZDan · Sep 1, 2020

muleman said:
Use him sparingly till he has acclimatised to the real world after being on his pumped up pre sale diet!

Surely a freshly bough bull would be fit for a full work load straight away? Other wise what is the point of buying him?

NZDan · Sep 1, 2020

M-J-G said:
Is your progeny testing work being done on sheep in the UK?

No, but the same principles apply. If you took 17 odd sires and did the same in the UK you would get the same sort of result.

Ysgythan · Sep 1, 2020

neilo said:
A ‘proper’ stockman can tell those things apparently.

yep

If you tell lies you'll get caught out eventually

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