"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

Woolless · Sep 16, 2020

texas pete said:
Yes, they’re being careful, and broad brush.

As @Woolless said, it could finish some folk, that’s life I suppose.

Fancy a joint venture here with me buying some overpriced store lambs, to then sell into next years uncertain market???

Shite me they’re dear atm.

Never mind, you'll be producing your own next year

texas pete · Sep 16, 2020

Woolless said:
Never mind, you'll be producing your own next year

I know and I won’t be fecking around shearing either. Can’t wait.

Karliboy · Sep 16, 2020

Henarar said:
Get cows, vary calming, you know it makes sense

As above, but all the same they can sometimes be very frustrating.
Mine wore me out running around the other day trying to get them out off a field back onto the hill, the buggers did not want to go out the sodding gate.

Henarar · Sep 16, 2020

Karliboy said:
As above, but all the same they can sometimes be very frustrating.
Mine wore me out running around the other day trying to get them out off a field back onto the hill, the buggers did not want to go out the sodding gate.

Ours mostly come to a call but I had the same with a small leaderless lot the other day, the buggers wouldn't even look at the gateway, let them out across another field and round the long way no problem at all

Karliboy · Sep 16, 2020

Yeah mine normally come to call but they wouldn’t follow me the swines. I could see what they were thinking stood at the gate.
(Silly c//t thinks we’re going up there when we have all this sweet new regrowth to go at he can think again)

som farmer · Sep 16, 2020

we give our calves a bit of conc, when turned out, they say, we shouldn't need to, but they get used to coming to you, or an empty bag rattled, that's worth a lot, when moving them!!! you can see anything wrong, or if hanging back, and, very often catch one !, easy to fly spray, as well. 1/2 kg/day, over say 150 days, is 75 kg £20, and they do benefit from it, as well.

Henarar · Sep 16, 2020

som farmer said:
we give our calves a bit of conc, when turned out, they say, we shouldn't need to, but they get used to coming to you, or an empty bag rattled, that's worth a lot, when moving them!!! you can see anything wrong, or if hanging back, and, very often catch one !, easy to fly spray, as well. 1/2 kg/day, over say 150 days, is 75 kg £20, and they do benefit from it, as well.

we give the lambs a bit of feed and the ewes just get a few peelings from in house as you say it don't half save some time chasing them about, its probably quite holistic

bendigeidfran · Sep 16, 2020

Kiwi Pete said:
They certainly seem to be tightening up, our bank decided it was time to call our overdraft, so I had to magic $40,000 in 10 business days

10 days is very short notice, without checking i think id have 28 days to pay back.
How do you think other farmers will fare?
Hope they don't start recalling loans aswell.
On a personal note, financial planning is one area i really should do more of.
As one bank manager told me, farmers are happier doing £10hr jobs rather than office / managment at £100hr .

Kiwi Pete · Sep 16, 2020

bendigeidfran said:
10 days is very short notice, without checking i think id have 28 days to pay back.
How do you think other farmers will fare?
Hope they don't start recalling loans aswell.
On a personal note, financial planning is one area i really should do more of.
As one bank manager told me, farmers are happier doing £10hr jobs rather than office / managment at £100hr .

It would be interesting, I dare say most of them will have a proper loan for 'working capital' and an overdraft. But we aren't proper!

Our manager is a good sort though, very understanding because they have a similar size block themselves and know the ramifications of pulling $1000/ha at fairly short notice.

Kiwi Pete · Sep 16, 2020

(Here's something to ponder, copied from Facebook)

Over the weekend I had a phone call from a mate who lives in urban Auckland and he wanted to have a yarn about the new Green Party Agricultural Policy, that to his mind seemed logical, fair and reasonable, almost an exciting step forward, but he wanted to see the policy through the lens of a farmer as well,

I have been reflecting on his question regarding the launching of the Green Party Agricultural "Policy" trying to quantify the feeling of hopeless that I and many farmers feel.

So let's unpack this a bit.

How our business works is we have a farm income, that is the culmination of all the stock we sell and the grain and seed crops that we grow and sell to processors as it's eventually makes it way to your local Supermarket.

Out of that income, we pay our farm expenses, seed, fertiliser, fuel and electricity, farm supplies, and various other goods and services. Most of this expenditure benefits businesses in our local town Ashburton and across the wider Canterbury economy.

Once we have sold our produce and paid for our expenses, there is hopefully a wee bit left over, which is what most business owners refer to as their return on investment.

Last year our arable and stock farming business made a pre-tax return on total assets of 3.6%.

The Greens intend to impose a "Wealth Tax" of 2%.

That leaves us with 1.6% return on assets before we pay any Income Tax.

The Greens then plan to "charge a fair price" for the Methane burped by our sheep. I have previously heard prices of $50-$250/t of Carbon Equivalent suggested by the Greens, but let's say at the low end of that range, our Climate Change cost just for Methane will be 1.5% of total assets.

That leaves us with 0.1%.

The Greens intend to develop a Water Charge in consultation with Iwi.

Previously the Greens have stated that charge should be 10 cents per cubic metre. David Parker publicly stated an intention for a water charge of 2 cents per cubic metre.

Here a Valetta, even at the lower charge of 2 cents per cube, the cost of watering our arable crops would be another 0.4% of total assets annually.

That leaves us making a 0.3% loss.

The Greens then want to impose a levy of fertiliser, want us to run a zero-till or minimum-till system, not sure how that works in a long term seed production system and adopt Regenerative principles.

But here's the clanger, they intend to impose a Dissolved Inorganic Nitrogen (DIN) level of 1mg/litre for all waterways in NZ. Currently water flows out of DoC land at western side of Mid Canterbury at 3.2mg/l.

To meet a DIN of 1mg/l, Environment Canterbury's own report from 2017 found that land use in the neighbouring Selwyn Te Waihora Catchment would have to revert to dryland sheep grazing.

We have budgeted that impact on this farm and it looks like this-

Crop Income, down 92%
Sheep Gross, down 62%
Expenditure, down 70%
Wages, down 91%
EBIT, down 68%
Capital Re-investment, down 74%
Net Profit, down 105%
Tax Paid, down 75%

The actual numbers are irrelevant, because the percentage drops will be seen across many or most farm businesses, regardless of size.

Of course, that is before any of the other new taxes and levies they wish for detailed above.

This conversation hasn't even begun to touch on the significant investment in technology and infrastructure we have made in the last 15 years to reduce our environmental impact, all of which would be both unaffordable, and irrelevant because none of it will get us even close to meeting the limits the Greens wish for.

The end result of all this is we would now own a totally unviable, un-bankable business that is not much more than a glorified life style block and has no economic future in food production. The knock on impact is that land values will collapse.

My suggestion to my mate, or anyone else in urban New Zealand reading this is to enjoy and savour the standard of living that you currently enjoy, make diary notes, take photographs so that you can look back on the "good ole days" as we embark on our journey to becoming a Zimbabwe or Venezuela of the South Pacific.

It was not sensible policy announced this last weekend, it was the framework for economic destruction.

Given the catastrophic economic news released in the PERFU today, I'm not sure we can afford to take a wrecking ball to the agricultural and horticultural sectors right now.

(Feel free to share)

JohnGalway · Sep 16, 2020

*Roll up, roll up*

E50 for Gabe Brown, Allan Savory, Nicole Masters, Christine Jones (and presumably others)

NOTS - National Organic Training Skillnet. Training for the organic sector.

High quality, low cost training for the organic sector throughout the Republic of Ireland. NOTS will be providing a range of courses throughout the country.

nots.ie

Kiwi Pete · Sep 17, 2020

Farmer Roy said:
Err, I haven’t posted here for a while as I feel a bit like an imposter, seeing as how I don’t have any livestock or do any grazing
Anyhoo, I thought some might be interested in this ( very short notice I know ), but a free online lecture from Allan Savory, live in an hours time.
He was coming out here to deliver this in person, but covid bûggered those plans

Log in or sign up to view

See posts, photos and more on Facebook.

www.facebook.com

That was a good show, I couldn't help but think Allan has aged considerably in the last while. Cheers for the invite

Henarar · Sep 17, 2020

Kiwi Pete said:
(Here's something to ponder, copied from Facebook)

Over the weekend I had a phone call from a mate who lives in urban Auckland and he wanted to have a yarn about the new Green Party Agricultural Policy, that to his mind seemed logical, fair and reasonable, almost an exciting step forward, but he wanted to see the policy through the lens of a farmer as well,

I have been reflecting on his question regarding the launching of the Green Party Agricultural "Policy" trying to quantify the feeling of hopeless that I and many farmers feel.

So let's unpack this a bit.

How our business works is we have a farm income, that is the culmination of all the stock we sell and the grain and seed crops that we grow and sell to processors as it's eventually makes it way to your local Supermarket.

Out of that income, we pay our farm expenses, seed, fertiliser, fuel and electricity, farm supplies, and various other goods and services. Most of this expenditure benefits businesses in our local town Ashburton and across the wider Canterbury economy.

Once we have sold our produce and paid for our expenses, there is hopefully a wee bit left over, which is what most business owners refer to as their return on investment.

Last year our arable and stock farming business made a pre-tax return on total assets of 3.6%.

The Greens intend to impose a "Wealth Tax" of 2%.

That leaves us with 1.6% return on assets before we pay any Income Tax.

The Greens then plan to "charge a fair price" for the Methane burped by our sheep. I have previously heard prices of $50-$250/t of Carbon Equivalent suggested by the Greens, but let's say at the low end of that range, our Climate Change cost just for Methane will be 1.5% of total assets.

That leaves us with 0.1%.

The Greens intend to develop a Water Charge in consultation with Iwi.

Previously the Greens have stated that charge should be 10 cents per cubic metre. David Parker publicly stated an intention for a water charge of 2 cents per cubic metre.

Here a Valetta, even at the lower charge of 2 cents per cube, the cost of watering our arable crops would be another 0.4% of total assets annually.

That leaves us making a 0.3% loss.

The Greens then want to impose a levy of fertiliser, want us to run a zero-till or minimum-till system, not sure how that works in a long term seed production system and adopt Regenerative principles.

But here's the clanger, they intend to impose a Dissolved Inorganic Nitrogen (DIN) level of 1mg/litre for all waterways in NZ. Currently water flows out of DoC land at western side of Mid Canterbury at 3.2mg/l.

To meet a DIN of 1mg/l, Environment Canterbury's own report from 2017 found that land use in the neighbouring Selwyn Te Waihora Catchment would have to revert to dryland sheep grazing.

We have budgeted that impact on this farm and it looks like this-

Crop Income, down 92%
Sheep Gross, down 62%
Expenditure, down 70%
Wages, down 91%
EBIT, down 68%
Capital Re-investment, down 74%
Net Profit, down 105%
Tax Paid, down 75%

The actual numbers are irrelevant, because the percentage drops will be seen across many or most farm businesses, regardless of size.

Of course, that is before any of the other new taxes and levies they wish for detailed above.

This conversation hasn't even begun to touch on the significant investment in technology and infrastructure we have made in the last 15 years to reduce our environmental impact, all of which would be both unaffordable, and irrelevant because none of it will get us even close to meeting the limits the Greens wish for.

The end result of all this is we would now own a totally unviable, un-bankable business that is not much more than a glorified life style block and has no economic future in food production. The knock on impact is that land values will collapse.

My suggestion to my mate, or anyone else in urban New Zealand reading this is to enjoy and savour the standard of living that you currently enjoy, make diary notes, take photographs so that you can look back on the "good ole days" as we embark on our journey to becoming a Zimbabwe or Venezuela of the South Pacific.

It was not sensible policy announced this last weekend, it was the framework for economic destruction.

Given the catastrophic economic news released in the PERFU today, I'm not sure we can afford to take a wrecking ball to the agricultural and horticultural sectors right now.

(Feel free to share)

Are the greens in charge in NZ then ?

The problem I see in a wealth tax on land "value" when there has been talk of it here is its not the owners fault its worth so much and many land owners had no say in it being worth so much and quite frankly its a pain in the arse that it is worth so much, you may laugh at that but its true

Farmer Roy · Sep 17, 2020

Farmer Roy · Sep 17, 2020

You can see how far the neighbours sheep have been able to get their heads through the hingejoint . . .

Kiwi Pete · Sep 17, 2020

Henarar said:
Are the greens in charge in NZ then ?

The problem I see in a wealth tax on land "value" when there has been talk of it here is its not the owners fault its worth so much and many land owners had no say in it being worth so much and quite frankly its a pain in the arse that it is worth so much, you may laugh at that but its true

The only thing that's really worth anything at all is the land. All the other made-up crap has "value" and land has a made-up price tag, even money is made-up when you think about it.

Pretty tough row to hoe, being "regenerative" when the land is meant to pay itself off every generation, plus pay for household consumption and everything else.
Can't really blame farmers for raping the landscape when it has such a lofty price on its head?
That's the big flaw in our western concept of "ownership" of the land, compared to the indigenous concept of it belonging to everyone

Henarar · Sep 17, 2020

Kiwi Pete said:
The only thing that's really worth anything at all is the land. All the other made-up crap has "value" and land has a made-up price tag, even money is made-up when you think about it.

Pretty tough row to hoe, being "regenerative" when the land is meant to pay itself off every generation, plus pay for household consumption and everything else.
Can't really blame farmers for raping the landscape when it has such a lofty price on its head?
That's the big flaw in our western concept of "ownership" of the land, compared to the indigenous concept of it belonging to everyone

you didn't answer the question
I don't follow poltics over there, tis bad enough here

Kiwi Pete · Sep 17, 2020

Henarar said:
you didn't answer the question
I don't follow poltics over there, tis bad enough here

Oh, no well they aren't really "in" nor "out" at the moment. We have a variant type of democracy here where even getting the most support in the election can mean you don't get "in", which is what happened this time.
The party with the most votes is actually The Oppostion and a few of The Losers got together and made a coalition gov't

Woolless · Sep 17, 2020

Thought I would share some soil results with the enormous collective intellect gathered here!

Following soil samples four years ago, we spread lime across the whole farm. With one eye on my forthcoming regenerative grazing experiment, I thought that I would repeat the sampling and I'm quite pleased with the results.

Most of the farm is Ph6 or above. The exceptions are the two fields where I'm planning to mob graze the cattle, 25 acres (so 10 Ha?) in total at 5.6 and 5.8. P/K levels are pretty good with only a third of the farm short or slightly short. One of these fields has been cut for silage the last two years. Another which is marginally short of P was cut five years ago. Organic matter is good across the board, ranging from 6.4% up to 9.4%. It would seem that with suitable PH and decent levels of OM, the soil can largely regulate itself.

I assume that I would be as well to spread some lime on those two fields to 'prime the pump' for the cattle starting their rotation?

Kiwi Pete · Sep 17, 2020

Woolless said:
Thought I would share some soil results with the enormous collective intellect gathered here!

Following soil samples four years ago, we spread lime across the whole farm. With one eye on my forthcoming regenerative grazing experiment, I thought that I would repeat the sampling and I'm quite pleased with the results.

Most of the farm is Ph6 or above. The exceptions are the two fields where I'm planning to mob graze the cattle, 25 acres (so 10 Ha?) in total at 5.6 and 5.8. P/K levels are pretty good with only a third of the farm short or slightly short. One of these fields has been cut for silage the last two years. Another which is marginally short of P was cut five years ago. Organic matter is good across the board, ranging from 6.4% up to 9.4%. It would seem that with suitable PH and decent levels of OM, the soil can largely regulate itself.

I assume that I would be as well to spread some lime on those two fields to 'prime the pump' for the cattle starting their rotation?

Remember, your tests only likely show you're "slightly short" of available P&K.
(The actual amounts present are massive)

I like the term.you used there, hopefully if you don't have roots that are slightly short then your ability to tap those reserves will be improved, because the easiest way to stall the P cycle is to apply phosphate fertiliser.
And remember that the usual Olsen tests apply to soil pH 7-7.5, ie it's easier on the pocket to ignore that line on the test

"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

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