Question: To farmers who are interested in practicing agroforestry on their farms - what's your biggest obstacle?

puppet · Nov 27, 2020

I think every farm has areas which can be planted with almost no loss of production. Good grants just now, SFP or equivalent for 15 years and the opportunity for carbon trading which is going to be a big thing to allow companies to offset fossil fuel use.

toquark · Nov 27, 2020

Its not just the hassle of working around parkland trees, its the cost of getting them established. I recently watched a zoom presentation on agroforestry and was stunned to learn that the average cost of establishing a single parkland tree was £500. Now this was a county council who would probably overspend anyway but even if you half that cost its prohibitively expensive and as others have noted only causes a technical obstacle for essentially an aesthetic gain.

That said parkland trees do look tremendous in the landscape.

PhilipB · Nov 27, 2020

As someone who aims to make money from fruit growing I find the idea (that some give) that popping a row of apple trees into an arable field will make money very, very strange.

Secondly I find Oliver Rackham fairly persuasive. He argues that most commercial forestry plantations over the years have been financially dubious (you have no idea about demand for that particular type of wood in X number of years to maturity)

He also thinks that planting trees is overrated (it's a activism which doesn't deliver good trees or a good ecosystem)

But then I live in a very tree-d part of the world.

toquark · Nov 27, 2020

PhilipB said:
He argues that most commercial forestry plantations over the years have been financially dubious (you have no idea about demand for that particular type of wood in X number of years to maturity)

Can that argument not be applied to any commodity based industry though? The commercial forestry sector has been pretty proactive about pushing wood based products into an initially reluctant construction sector and are now reaping the rewards. Apart from a few exceptions commercial forestry does pay and pay well.

PhilipB · Nov 27, 2020

toquark said:
Can that argument not be applied to any commodity based industry though? The commercial forestry sector has been pretty proactive about pushing wood based products into an initially reluctant construction sector and are now reaping the rewards. Apart from a few exceptions commercial forestry does pay and pay well.

I don't know much - at all - about it, but that is presumably softwood in large quantities: Scotland and so on.

Agriforestry isn't about that, it's about small(er) quantities of native species.

toquark · Nov 27, 2020

PhilipB said:
I don't know much - at all - about it, but that is presumably softwood in large quantities: Scotland and so on.

Agriforestry isn't about that, it's about small(er) quantities of native species.

Yes I'm referring to larger plantations but the principle's the same. Good tree management should pay when seen in isolation, the problem comes when trying to shoehorn one business into another and you end up with a weak compromise which doesn't really benefit either (aesthetics aside).

I think the best option for farms considering a forestry element is simply to earmark a distinct area, plant it, manage it as a forest and reap the reward in time. The ROI timeframe for commercial species is dropping rapidly with modern genetics and in some cases is now around 25 years, not the 40-50 years we've seen historically. Still long term but not so long that a farmer in his 30s of 40s won't see the benefit.

Ffermer Bach · Nov 27, 2020

I love to see trees, but I hate the idea of taking good fields and planting trees in them, it just somehow feels wrong to me, planting up hedges and corners is another matter.

Watching Sarah Beany on TV the other night, it just seemed so wrong taking a good flat field and digging it up to put a pond in the middle (and a house for that matter).

I think another thing is the value of the land, if I planted a field with trees it's value would drop (and I know I am talking about forestry), but I would never be able to clear it again (with the present restrictions).

I have been on a permaculture course, however, I can't see how those ideas would fit with our present agricultural system. Maybe in the future, when we no longer have tractors with drivers, but robots nipping up and down the fields, and I am sure that will not be too far off.

I am more than happy to plant hedges (got 1200 whips coming next month), but definitely nothing in the fields.

I am sure Joel Salatin has said no trees in the pastures, as it concentrates all the animal muck in one area, and he would like it spread out.

SilliamWhale · Nov 27, 2020

I'd rather be able to just get decent for my hedgerows but its all pretty much below cost or not available. It may be a bigger deal in the arable east who lack a bit of variety

PhilipB · Nov 27, 2020

Ffermer Bach said:
I love to see trees, but I hate the idea of taking good fields and planting trees in them, it just somehow feels wrong to me, planting up hedges and corners is another matter.

Watching Sarah Beany on TV the other night, it just seemed so wrong taking a good flat field and digging it up to put a pond in the middle (and a house for that matter).

I think another thing is the value of the land, if I planted a field with trees it's value would drop (and I know I am talking about forestry), but I would never be able to clear it again (with the present restrictions).

I have been on a permaculture course, however, I can't see how those ideas would fit with our present agricultural system. Maybe in the future, when we no longer have tractors with drivers, but robots nipping up and down the fields, and I am sure that will not be too far off.

I am more than happy to plant hedges (got 1200 whips coming next month), but definitely nothing in the fields.

I am sure Joel Salatin has said no trees in the pastures, as it concentrates all the animal muck in one area, and he would like it spread out.

I agree. I think the "not being able to clear it again" is key. And is my great problem with so much 'ELMs' stuff.

Raider112 · Nov 27, 2020

puppet said:
I think every farm has areas which can be planted with almost no loss of production. Good grants just now, SFP or equivalent for 15 years and the opportunity for carbon trading which is going to be a big thing to allow companies to offset fossil fuel use.

The NFU say we're going to be carbon neutral but that will never happen if we do carbon trading which leaves the real polluters with a clean record and farmers still looking like the villains.

IFarmers · Nov 27, 2020

Some really interesting perspectives on this. Thanks all for posting. Keep them coming.

Frank-the-Wool · Nov 27, 2020

The reason I am not interested in agri forestry is because in the Weald of Kent and Sussex we have too many trees already, the fields are small and the ground acidic so even growing grass becomes difficult.
I do still plant a few trees and we are busy replanting hedges at the moment, so nothing against them but they need to be in the right place.

Cowslip · Nov 27, 2020

We are predominantly marshes, no trees will grow, willows do grow but the wind soon deals with them.

Cowlife · Nov 27, 2020

I love the look of agriforestry but in the wet cold damp antrim hills it would wet the ground even more. I seen trial plots at Enniskillen college done approx 20 years ago and it had left the ground wetter than before. I think in a arid environment there may be an economic benefit through shade for livestock and preserving moisture but I m only going on hearsay.

Longlowdog · Nov 27, 2020

The single biggest issue is that even if you plant without grants the trees themselves magically become protected by government. I asked a question about felling in America and was told 'the government didn't plant my trees so they have no control over them'. Sounds fair to me. Now...if you take the grants and their conditions once the grants end that is different. However if I want to give it a bash in another field at my own expense I do not believe the government should forbid me from writing off the experiment.
The second biggest issue is people with no vested interest sticking their nose in and creating a fuss about commercial/agri tree felling or demanding others plant/protect trees whilst they live in their urban cesspits with their paved over gardens.

ShooTa · Nov 27, 2020

too many trees! i cant turn woodland back into woodpasture/

IFarmers · Apr 21, 2021

For those interested we've just published some guides for three tree planting designs which fit into different livestock systems. These designs are all being trialled by 7 farmers in a field lab supported by researchers over the next 12 years. So we'll get a lot more data on the benefits to animal welfare, soil health and biodiversity and pros/cons to productivity.

Three silvopasture planting designs to suit your farm

www.innovativefarmers.org

We're always trying to make sure this content is useful to the sorts of questions that farmers need answering before making decisions to change their practices. So do let us know if it needs improving.

LuckyEleven · Apr 21, 2021

Surprised at the lack of talk of hybrid poplar based systems which appear to be all the rage here in france.

20-25 years to crop at around 10,000€ a Hectare gross

Bootneck · Apr 21, 2021

Keeping cattle and sheep away from young trees. Watering widely spaced saplings trees in pasture.

Rod Dumbreck · Apr 21, 2021

LuckyEleven said:
Surprised at the lack of talk of hybrid poplar based systems which appear to be all the rage here in france.

20-25 years to crop at around 10,000€ a Hectare gross

Is this for a timber crop or biomass?

Question: To farmers who are interested in practicing agroforestry on their farms - what's your biggest obstacle?

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0 %

Up to 25%

25-50%

50-75%

75-100%

100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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