Pasture-For-Life beef

CopperBeech · Feb 25, 2021

The Ruminant said:
These things never can be black and white, can they! There will always be extremes of systems - 6 months housed(!!) v outwintered on tiny amounts of grain - that will find holes in the standards. On a bell curve these alternative options would be outliers. The majority of farmers that are in the middle of the bell curve could transition to feeding less or no grain, if they wished. PFLA gives them the option to be recognised in the marketplace, should they so wish to go down that route.

Fundamentally, we shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that ruminants have evolved over tens of thousands of years to eat forage and roughage. You can never kill a working animal (ie feeding young or growing frame, etc) by over-feeding forage. However, you can kill them with too much grain and, even at lower amounts, it puts stress on the liver, causes digestive ailments, causes foot problems, etc, etc.

At very low levels of grain feeding, such ‘problems’ are asymptomatic or almost non-existent and, it’s true, there may be benefits in certain circumstances - a nutritionally poor moorland being a good example, especially when the practicalities of the site are taken into consideration too.

If they were my cattle and I wanted to pursue a pasture-fed diet for them, I would look to find a way of bale grazing them somehow. It’s amazing how powerful the human mind can be at finding a solution to a seemingly intractable problem!

Recognised in the market place how and by whom ...... and to what advantage ? Yer ...... none.

Agrivator · Feb 25, 2021

The Ruminant said:
These things never can be black and white, can they! There will always be extremes of systems - 6 months housed(!!) v outwintered on tiny amounts of grain - that will find holes in the standards. On a bell curve these alternative options would be outliers. The majority of farmers that are in the middle of the bell curve could transition to feeding less or no grain, if they wished. PFLA gives them the option to be recognised in the marketplace, should they so wish to go down that route.

Fundamentally, we shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that ruminants have evolved over tens of thousands of years to eat forage and roughage. You can never kill a working animal (ie feeding young or growing frame, etc) by over-feeding forage. However, you can kill them with too much grain and, even at lower amounts, it puts stress on the liver, causes digestive ailments, causes foot problems, etc, etc.

At very low levels of grain feeding, such ‘problems’ are asymptomatic or almost non-existent and, it’s true, there may be benefits in certain circumstances - a nutritionally poor moorland being a good example, especially when the practicalities of the site are taken into consideration too.

If they were my cattle and I wanted to pursue a pasture-fed diet for them, I would look to find a way of bale grazing them somehow. It’s amazing how powerful the human mind can be at finding a solution to a seemingly intractable problem!

It's only in the last 30 years that traditional beef and sheep farmers have had the ability to reduce reliance on concentrates by making high quality conserved grass in a flexible, opportunist and predictable way - round-bale haylage made from leafy first or second cut grass/clover.

Even so, no sensible farmer would deny their stock access to supplementary concentrates as and when the productive capacity of their stock or the inadequacy of their conserved or grazed forage paid dividends and/or improved welfare.

Any farmer? taking the opposite view, simply to accord with the demands of a flawed system or to con a gullible public, should be banned from keeping livestock.

And by the way, there are records of sheep being fed whole barley grains a few thousand years ago.

The Ruminant · Feb 25, 2021

CopperBeech said:
Recognised in the market place how and by whom ...... and to what advantage ? Yer ...... none.

A growing number of butchers and independent meat suppliers are sourcing only “Pasture For Life” certified meat. Likewise a lot of farmers who sell PfL meat are gaining repeat customers who insist on buying it produced to these standards. It’s not gone mainstream (ie supermarkets) for reasons explained earlier in this thread.

Recent analysis shows the global grassfed beef market is expected to grow by $14bn USD by 2024. I’ve met you @CopperBeech, I know you’re an excellent sheep farmer and businessman and you should be proud of what you’ve achieved. If I were you I would keep an open mind as you’re as well placed as anyone to take advantage of growing markets like this one.

CopperBeech · Feb 25, 2021

The Ruminant said:
A growing number of butchers and independent meat suppliers are sourcing only “Pasture For Life” certified meat. Likewise a lot of farmers who sell PfL meat are gaining repeat customers who insist on buying it produced to these standards. It’s not gone mainstream (ie supermarkets) for reasons explained earlier in this thread.

Recent analysis shows the global grassfed beef market is expected to grow by $14bn USD by 2024. I’ve met you @CopperBeech, I know you’re an excellent sheep farmer and businessman and you should be proud of what you’ve achieved. If I were you I would keep an open mind as you’re as well placed as anyone to take advantage of growing markets like this one.

Thanks for the kind words! Where did we meet? I have no issue in theory with the whole pfla thing, fundamentally I agree entirely with it and have based my system on forage. However I feel that while pfla do an excellent job of converting and lobbying producers, there is a lack of growth and drive in the market. I think the important thing is to create a strong market demand - if this is done then the producers will always follow. Currently it appears as if the only way to take advantage of the pfla badge is to sell small volumes to some butchers in some areas or sell directly. I would argue from experience of selling both to butchers and also directly that in reality people want to buy a story not a badge - so high well fare grass fed from farmer x is what they need, they aren’t fussed about the pfla badge. Where the gains would be made on the pfla brand would be recognition and adoption by larger retailers or food out lets. You just need one super market, up market chain burger place etc to adopt it and the ball starts rolling. That’s just my opinion, but what I’ve observed is most folk who go all forage fed etc are either someone mob grazing seven Dexter’s on the side of a Cumbrian mountain whilst wearing sandals and talking about regen ag.. .... and tuning down other farmers. Or someone like me who is large scale and has gone pasture fed for the economic efficiency, which usually means scale as well, which ultimately renders the current pfla sales model a bit null and void. I hope I make sense.

The Ruminant · Feb 25, 2021

CopperBeech said:
Thanks for the kind words! Where did we meet? I have no issue in theory with the whole pfla thing, fundamentally I agree entirely with it and have based my system on forage. However I feel that while pfla do an excellent job of converting and lobbying producers, there is a lack of growth and drive in the market. I think the important thing is to create a strong market demand - if this is done then the producers will always follow. Currently it appears as if the only way to take advantage of the pfla badge is to sell small volumes to some butchers in some areas or sell directly. I would argue from experience of selling both to butchers and also directly that in reality people want to buy a story not a badge - so high well fare grass fed from farmer x is what they need, they aren’t fussed about the pfla badge. Where the gains would be made on the pfla brand would be recognition and adoption by larger retailers or food out lets. You just need one super market, up market chain burger place etc to adopt it and the ball starts rolling. That’s just my opinion, but what I’ve observed is most folk who go all forage fed etc are either someone mob grazing seven Dexter’s on the side of a Cumbrian mountain whilst wearing sandals and talking about regen ag.. .... and tuning down other farmers. Or someone like me who is large scale and has gone pasture fed for the economic efficiency, which usually means scale as well, which ultimately renders the current pfla sales model a bit null and void. I hope I make sense.

We’ve met a couple of times - you used to keep your sheep (not sure if you still do) on a place in Hampshire that was owned by a friend of mine, TM. I think I also met you, with TM, in a pub after a Regen Ag / Holistic Mgt conference in London once, many years ago.

I agree with all you’ve written really. The challenge, as has been said on here before, is chicken and egg: you need sufficient producers - and a functioning supply chain - to be able to approach supermarkets etc, but conversely you need a functioning supply chain and a good supermarket outlet before sufficient producers come on board.

It’s also important to remember where PFLA has come from and who’s behind it. It started in ?? 2011 ?? when a few farmers got together. For the majority of the time since then it has been run largely by volunteers with one or one and a half employees doing the day to day stuff. The fact that it’s grown as much as it has, has the profile it has and is starting to have an impact in wider circles is credit to all those who’ve been involved.

I am sure all involved would say there is a long way to go yet, but every week sees the marketplace growing. This time next year, Rodney....

The fact you’re running a forage system on a large scale shows it works and undermines some of @Agrivator ’s more provocative arguments to a degree. There are many other large scale producers who are doing similar, and why not when its often more profitable!

Hilly · Feb 25, 2021

The Ruminant said:
A growing number of butchers and independent meat suppliers are sourcing only “Pasture For Life” certified meat. Likewise a lot of farmers who sell PfL meat are gaining repeat customers who insist on buying it produced to these standards. It’s not gone mainstream (ie supermarkets) for reasons explained earlier in this thread.

Recent analysis shows the global grassfed beef market is expected to grow by $14bn USD by 2024. I’ve met you @CopperBeech, I know you’re an excellent sheep farmer and businessman and you should be proud of what you’ve achieved. If I were you I would keep an open mind as you’re as well placed as anyone to take advantage of growing markets like this one.

I think pfl will be better off not going mainstream keep the supermarket grubby fingers off it imo.

MDL POWERUP · Feb 25, 2021

It could be used as a tool like red tractor to discount not reward in the long run.

Hilly · Feb 25, 2021

MDL POWERUP said:
It could be used as a tool like red tractor to discount not reward in the long run.

Best left to niche markets that will pay premium cos if not the masses will want on board and find ways of cheating as well .

NZDan · Feb 25, 2021

Bury the Trash said:
well ...actually
i am interested , as i am all things to do with the farm its just not on the top of the list.
If i weren't at all interested i wouldnt comment.
off on a tangent yes.
another reason why i comment is when a poster comments about something that doesn't add up at all, like @NZDan 's one about possible grazing type on the Moors, im not denouncing the fact the method might be more productive but thats not the point, rights to roam,access, Common s, National Parks, Environmental schemes are.,thats not excuses ,just realities.
and Outdoor wintering will poach a lot of the soils in my part of the world to shreds rendering them poor for spring growth.,which is the best time of the year for it around here also.

Do you think, (bureaucracy allowing) that rotational grazing (short grazing periods, long rest periods) on extensive ground would be beneficial to both production, and environment ?

holwellcourtfarm · Feb 25, 2021

NZDan said:
Do you think, (bureaucracy allowing) that rotational grazing (short grazing periods, long rest periods) on extensive ground would be beneficial to both production, and environment ?

Yes. However that's a weak implementation of just one of the regenerative grazing principles. The more principles you observe and adopt the greater the overall impact on both things you mention and the faster changes happen.

Woolless · Feb 25, 2021

Agrivator said:
It's only in the last 30 years that traditional beef and sheep farmers have had the ability to reduce reliance on concentrates by making high quality conserved grass in a flexible, opportunist and predictable way - round-bale haylage made from leafy first or second cut grass/clover.

Even so, no sensible farmer would deny their stock access to supplementary concentrates as and when the productive capacity of their stock or the inadequacy of their conserved or grazed forage paid dividends and/or improved welfare.

Any farmer? taking the opposite view, simply to accord with the demands of a flawed system or to con a gullible public, should be banned from keeping livestock.

And by the way, there are records of sheep being fed whole barley grains a few thousand years ago.

I don't have knowledge of the standard but surely if circumstances dictated that concentrates needed to be fed, then that could be done but the animals wouldn't be PFLA certified? Presumably, those going down the PFLA route will organise their business so that fodder/grazing will be available at all times so that their stock will perform well. And of course keep the type of stock that are least likely to need cake. We are presumably not talking about a herd of high-yielding Holsteins suddenly having to exist on the green stuff alone.

NZDan · Feb 25, 2021

holwellcourtfarm said:
Yes. However that's a weak implementation of just one of the regenerative grazing principles. The more principles you observe and adopt the greater the overall impact on both things you mention and the faster changes happen.

Fair enough, but I wasn't considering regen principles, I was thinking just around different grazing management on ground that traditionally would have been largely just set stocked.

holwellcourtfarm · Feb 25, 2021

NZDan said:
Fair enough, but I wasn't considering regen principles, I was thinking just around different grazing management on ground that traditionally would have been largely just set stocked.

@Kiwi Pete will have more idea but I suspect it'll largely depend on the current soil health. If its dysfunctional then you would probably see little benefit but only trying it out would really tell.

Give it a go on one paddock as a trial perhaps?

Macsky · Feb 25, 2021

Recognising the health benefits of grass-fed beef

GRASS-FED beef could soon be recognised legally as a source of long-chain omega-3 fatty acids, following work carried out at Newcastle University.

www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk

NZDan · Feb 25, 2021

holwellcourtfarm said:
@Kiwi Pete will have more idea but I suspect it'll largely depend on the current soil health. If its dysfunctional then you would probably see little benefit but only trying it out would really tell.

Give it a go on one paddock as a trial perhaps?

We've got two paddocks here we're trying to farm regen, and have two similar paddocks that we're comparing them with.
I was more looking at the UKs extensive upland ground. Ground that IMHO has lots of potential even just from a change of grazing management, set stocking to rotational grazing. I've seen evidence that rotational grazing with long rest periods seems to work really well in dry brittle environments, and i wonder how well it would work in wet brittle environments.

Bury the Trash · Feb 25, 2021

NZDan said:
Do you think, (bureaucracy allowing) that rotational grazing (short grazing periods, long rest periods) on extensive ground would be beneficial to both production, and environment ?

Yes.
Well it would be better than the over grazing of 40 yrs ago or so ( mainly by too many and too long grazing by sheep tho tbf ) and the undefgrazing in some areas today .

But in real life and something fundimentathat you dont seem to accept , is that especially within the National parks or on Commons ( which a lot if our moors or proper uplands are within ) for certain reasons ( like very old laws ) it wont happen so its a waste of time discussing it.

On ground in less favoured area ground not under those restrictions ( but I guess they might still be within Natural Englands ' control' )well that will depend on the farmer I guess, but still winter feeding regimes will be needed on commercial farms and with that winter work to do those farmers will want a break from the stock at least some of the time through the summer, i doubt they would want to be tied to moving electric fences
every day.

Having said that I'm a lowland farmer so I dont know much about tbf but that's not to say that I'm not interested.

exmoorromney · Feb 26, 2021

Bury the Trash said:
Yes.
Well it would be better than the over grazing of 40 yrs ago or so ( mainly by too many and too long grazing by sheep tho tbf ) and the undefgrazing in some areas today .

But in real life and something fundimentathat you dont seem to accept , is that especially within the National parks or on Commons ( which a lot if our moors or proper uplands are within ) for certain reasons ( like very old laws ) it wont happen so its a waste of time discussing it.

On ground in less favoured area ground not under those restrictions ( but I guess they might still be within Natural Englands ' control' )well that will depend on the farmer I guess, but still winter feeding regimes will be needed on commercial farms and with that winter work to do those farmers will want a break from the stock at least some of the time through the summer, i doubt they would want to be tied to moving electric fences
every day.

Having said that I'm a lowland farmer so I dont know much about tbf but that's not to say that I'm not interested.

Our farm and attached hill ground is owned by the National trust so putting miles of electric fencing on the hill would be a non starter. Add to that the right to roam and hundreds/thousands of walkers and cyclists and horse riders wondering wherever they like, plus the wild deer and Exmoor ponies that could decimate hell of a lot of fencing in a very short period of time, it would be practically and logistically impossible. The only way to achieve it would be with collars that shock the animals when they move out of the designated area but imagine the uproar from the animal rights nutters if that was allowed

Ffermer Bach · Feb 26, 2021

exmoorromney said:
Our farm and attached hill ground is owned by the National trust so putting miles of electric fencing on the hill would be a non starter. Add to that the right to roam and hundreds/thousands of walkers and cyclists and horse riders wondering wherever they like, plus the wild deer and Exmoor ponies that could decimate hell of a lot of fencing in a very short period of time, it would be practically and logistically impossible. The only way to achieve it would be with collars that shock the animals when they move out of the designated area but imagine the uproar from the animal rights nutters if that was allowed

I have heard that in New Zealand they are starting to fence the hills and use rotational grazing, so if mob grazing is better for the environment and more productive, I am nonplussed why we aren't using it as a system. I guess as a country we are just too rich to be forced to look at how we do things, but having said that, look at how land reform in Zimbabwe impoverished and starved the country, so maybe even that is not enough ~ I think the only way to find answers would be to look at organisation transactional analysis and cultural script work.

holwellcourtfarm · Feb 26, 2021

exmoorromney said:
imagine the uproar from the animal rights nutters if that was allowed

A fight i'd be up for!

Kiwi Pete · Feb 26, 2021

Ffermer Bach said:
I have heard that in New Zealand they are starting to fence the hills and use rotational grazing, so if mob grazing is better for the environment and more productive, I am nonplussed why we aren't using it as a system. I guess as a country we are just too rich to be forced to look at how we do things, but having said that, look at how land reform in Zimbabwe impoverished and starved the country, so maybe even that is not enough ~ I think the only way to find answers would be to look at organisation transactional analysis and cultural script work.

Stuffed if I know why "rotational grazing" must mean "messing about with electric fences" and "eating up your time"

I guess it's just two more reasons why it can't be done. As you point out, necessity compels you to open and shut the odd gate sometimes.

Here's 96 pasture-only steers away from our place today and I'd love to know which ones are the welfare cases, putting them off feed for 24 hours is as close as they've been to hungry in their short and happy lives

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