Red clover

Kevtherev

Member
Location
Welshpool Powys
For those that are interested a very interesting pic showing RC rooting depth
400BD0DF-4E2E-49A9-B81E-6AF990456426.png
 

sheepdogtrail

Member
Livestock Farmer
0.30 kg to 0.80 kg per acre, no more
I'm putting 0.30 kg in mine
Treated seed weighs can weigh x3 more. Plan accordingly. Depending on what I am doing I will use 2 lbs per acre in a mix up to 4 lbs a acre for pure stand. I use inculcated seed weighs three times as much as bare seed. If I want a chicory plant every 8 meters I use 1 lb per acre. These are broadcasting rates during the fall before paddock close up.
 

sheepdogtrail

Member
Livestock Farmer
I was going to say that my countryside stewardship officer (and before anyone jumps to conclusions shes no tree hugger so wasn't saying it to stop us spraying - shes brilliant and havent a bad word against her) was telling me that docks only taste bad to cows if they've had nitrogen spread on them.

So why do we hate them??? All I've heard so far is:
- anti bloat,
- free
- deep rooting (therefore drought resistant)
- extra minerals
- no nitrogen required
Docks love N and will scavenge excess N. That can be good until the plant becomes stressed. At which point that N turns into Nitrate. Heat and lack of water will stress it. Having a animal suffering from Nitrate poisoning is not a pleasant thing and once it starts, go get a gun and a shovel.
 

sheepdogtrail

Member
Livestock Farmer
This is RC (2 lbs/acre), Chicory (2lbs/acre), Late Tet RG (6 lbs/acre), WC (2 lbs/Acre), Plantain (1 lb/acre) planted on irrigated paddock. Paddock gets 40 mm of water every 30 days. The growth here is at 27 days. That is a mule ewe for scale. These x 2 times daily moves paddocks that time of the year. DM/demand is dynamic. Should be calculated daily based on stocking rate. Plants are about 18" in height. I have the sheep harvest the top 14" which is about 3 tons of DM/Acre. Fence brakes are about 12 feet deep x 700 feet long.

IMG_20200929_182822548_HDR.jpg
 

sheepdogtrail

Member
Livestock Farmer
I was going to say that my countryside stewardship officer (and before anyone jumps to conclusions shes no tree hugger so wasn't saying it to stop us spraying - shes brilliant and havent a bad word against her) was telling me that docks only taste bad to cows if they've had nitrogen spread on them.

So why do we hate them??? All I've heard so far is:
- anti bloat,
- free
- deep rooting (therefore drought resistant)
- extra minerals
- no nitrogen required
Docks love N and will scavenge excess N. That can be good until the plant becomes stressed. At which point that N turns into Nitrate. Heat and lack of water will stress it. A series of events that you may not see in parts of the world.

Having a animal suffering from Nitrate poisoning is not a pleasant thing.
 

sheepdogtrail

Member
Livestock Farmer
Bit out if date but Richard is very informative with his blogs
Thanks for the link. Did not know about it. I will read into it.

Also good information from Elliot. It is old school (1897) but still very applicable to this day.

 

Derrick Hughes

Member
Location
Ceredigion
@Derrick Hughes If Red clover is to be avoided for ewelambs intended for breeding, which legumes would be safer ? White? Lucerne? Crimson?
There's a risk with all of them but Red Clover stands out, the white clover effect is minimum as its not normally grown as a pure stand . Its diluted by the grass in the sward but can be made worse by environmental conditions, stress on the plant , I certainly would not feed a pure stand of lucerne at mating or a pure stand of white clover , but the truth is enough is not known
 

Sid

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
South Molton
There's a risk with all of them but Red Clover stands out, the white clover effect is minimum as its not normally grown as a pure stand . Its diluted by the grass in the sward but can be made worse by environmental conditions, stress on the plant , I certainly would not feed a pure stand of lucerne at mating or a pure stand of white clover , but the truth is enough is not known

So your saying that to improve ewe conception rates don't graze them on any leys with any clover?
 

Derrick Hughes

Member
Location
Ceredigion
So your saying that to improve ewe conception rates don't graze them on any leys with any clover?
Never said that .
The information is not available in any form of guarantee.
But its quite clear that pure stands of Red clover should be avoided at Mating and prolonged feeding of Pure Red clover can cause permanent infertility
The information on other Legumes is more complicated, but no legume under stress from weather or dessese of some kind should be fed at matting as this increases the risk , levels in other legumes are a lot lower than Red Clover, any legume as part of a mix would be of no issue if it was only a small part of the mix


Ibers
Permanent infertility When ewes are exposed to high oestrogen red clover for prolonged periods permanent infertility may occur. Clover infertility results in permanent damage to the reproductive tract which becomes worse with each year‟s exposure to oestrogenic pastures (Barrett et al., 1965). The oestrogen affects the structure of the cervix and sperm transport and conception rates are reduced (Lightfoot et al., 1973). There are often no visual signs that ewes are suffering from permanent infertility as ovarian function remains normal and ewes will show normal oestrous cycles (Adams, 1995). The lack of visual signs means that the condition often goes unnoticed and it is estimated that in Australia 1 million ewes may be affected and that, on average, affected flocks have around a 10% increase in non-pregnant ewes (Adams, 1990). Diagnosis of the problem is difficult and depends primarily on detection of pathological changes in the cervix, which is normally identified on material collected from ewes at abattoirs, rather than history or clinical signs.

1.2.1 Factors affecting phyto-oestrogen levels in white clover White clovers mostly produce phyto-oestrogens when grown under stress. The most common factor stimulating coumestrol production is leaf infection by fungal diseases (Wong et al., 1971). However, it is also worth noting that soil-borne fungi that live on pasture plants can also produce oestrogenic compounds (called myco-oestrogens) (Markiewicz, 2008). Insect damage, virus infection and poor plant nutrition can also lead to increased coumestrol levels. Coumestrol levels in white clover do not vary with the stage of growth. Legume density will influence the oestrogen concentration of the pasture so the presence of grasses and weeds will dilute the coumestrol concentration (Croker et al., 2005).



IBERS Legumes and Fertility Review clovers are strongly influenced by environmental and nutritional factors. The greatest content of phyto-oestrogen in lucerne plants is often found at the budding stage of growth, at which time environmental and nutritional factors are likely to have their greatest influence over the crop. As with other stress factors in other forage legumes, pests and diseases have been shown to increase the coumestrol production in lucerne (Hawk et al., 1967; Kain and Biggs, 1980). 1.3.2 Effect of high phyto-oestrogen levels in lucerne on ewes Many examples of research, across a wide range of countries, into the effects of phytooestrogen levels in lucerne on ewes have been identified as part of the review (albeit none identified in the UK), with several stating that the effect with regards to fertility has been found to be minimal. Research using Finnish Landrace ewes (Sormunen-Cristian et al., 1998) compared ewe fertility and performance between a lucerne-based silage and a timothy-based silage. Results from the research indicated that moderate coumestrol content of lucerne had no detrimental influence on ewe conception or “prolificacy” and that plant oestrogens in yellow-flowered lucerne might hasten oestrus activities in ewes and thus shorten the mating period. Secondly, work by Ruttle and Goret (1968) found that ewes either grazing lucerne or fed baled lucerne did not have reduced conception rates at first oestrus or lambing percentage, and rams used in the same study showed no measurable changes in semen quality.

However, over a prolonged period of time, research work conducted in Spain on Manchego ewes contradicts this (Cantero et al., 1996). Anatomical studies showed that “43% of ewes from a group of 28 fed on lucerne-based diets displayed macroscopic changes within the genital tract” when compared to a control group fed on a non-leguminous diet. The research also showed that a “greater than normal development of the cervical folds was observed” indicating that a prolonged exposure to coumestrol was seen to have permanent effects on a ewe‟s reproductive organs. Limited evidence was also found on the effect of feeding lucerne to immature females - in a group of ten ewe lambs fed on lucerne silage the ovaries were seen to be smaller than those of a group of ten fed on Italian ryegrass (Valderrábanoa et al., 1988). Microscopic examination showed specific features affecting the uterus, cervix and vagina; however, no difference in ovarian activity was detected.
 
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Sid

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
South Molton
Never said that .
The information is not available in any form of guarantee.
But its quite clear that pure stands of Red clover should be avoided at Mating and prolonged feeding of Pure Red clover can cause permanent infertility
The information on other Legumes is more complicated, but no legume under stress from weather or dessese of some kind should be fed at matting as this increases the risk , levels in other legumes are a lot lower than Red Clover, any legume as part of a mix would be of no issue if it was only a small part of the mix
You said there is a risk with them ALL.
25 years of growing clover and its the first I have ever heard of this issue in non Red clovers

Have you got a link to the research behind this claim?
 
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