Things that would improve farm safety ?

Clive said:

..................... bit like a BPS cheque really then ? there is a saying about glasshoues

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Nothing like a bps cheque Clive.
I should of known better than to contribute to your thread, you never do like my opinion.
It is possible to have sensible debate while having different views.

Clive said:

Yes, I think it's crazy the way things are right now, and hard to justify on the heavier and faster farm kit vs the regulation that hauliers have to comply with

Something has to be done about UK ags shocking safety record, lots of talk but very little;le action and meanwhile people are getting killed

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People running illegal weights at illegal speeds are contributing to said deaths.

Clive said:

..................... bit like a BPS cheque really then ? there is a saying about glasshoues

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I wish we could nail this crap on the head. Not all of us receive big subsidy payments. Some of us get nothing at all.

To many pages to read, so if this has been suggested, then my apologies.

Farms (especially stock farms) require a huge variety of equipment, from feeding, to slurry, from sowing to harvesting both crop and silage's, handling to loading and milking.

Equipment is getting bigger and more sophisticated, as is the software around the operation and management of everything.

In many cases, beyond Mr Average to be completely competent with everything.

Some years ago H&S rules changed, and ALL new equipment is now supposed to be installed, and the operator made familiar on the safety aspects - How often does that happen ???

So, H&S starts at the begging of the supply chain, but who actually monitors it ?

As has been stated on countless threads, there is also a need for Competency to operate certain equipment, driven by H&S as well as Insurers, who bothers to check until there is an accident ?

Much of the Industry's work is seasonal with some tasks that are labour intensive ( eg: silaging, fruit/veg bashing) during this busy time, how many are acting within the regulations, and who bothers to check ?

For years Ag has been ' self-regulating ' on most things, and although our H&S record is appalling, is it a price worth paying for the independence that self regulation brings ?

How do we reduce accidents and deaths, easy, allow monitoring and managing to independents who are paid on performance with high penalties and fines for those who aren't ?

Problem solved. When will it happen ? Never !

I don't know why the UK industry can't run the same size and speed kit as is allowed on the continent but if it wants to venture on the road and exceed 20mph or the gross train weight limits, it will need to meet some kind of MOT type inspection at least annually.

Operators driving without due care or consideration for the roads needs to be addressed but I'm not sure how.

Clive said:

We have done this debate before and its rather tiresome

On many of the roads we use, lower speeds are dangerous, several VERY nasty rear-end accidents confirm this as does the common sense approach taken by the police on such roads


You couldn't pay be any amount to drive our JCB loadall with 18mph top speed down the A38 locally, it would be a VERY dangerous (but legal) thing to do

Speed should be safely appropriate to the situation, we operate in a situation where the average speed is basically motorway speed, would you feel comfortable driving at 18mph on the M6 ? maybe try it next time you are on a motorway in a car and see what feels safer ? 70mph or 20mph



in more rural areas with less dual carriageways and fast traffic then a different approach maybe more suitable, different circumstances require different approaches

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So if it’s not safe to drive your machines legally on the road, perhaps you need to rethink what machines you use?

Given that a large proportion of the farm fatalities are falls from height and being crushed by livestock I would say the best thing they could do would be give all farm businesses under a certain size a free cherry picker and a cattle handling system (if they have livestock for the latter of course). Use the budget that current pays for machinery productivity grants.

Goweresque said:

I would say the best thing they could do would be give all farm businesses under a certain size a free cherry picker

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Not intending to knock the idea but wouldn't we then have incidents of turning cherry pickers over?

It's safe attitudes we need. We'd use the right kit and procedure then.

holwellcourtfarm said:

Not intending to knock the idea but wouldn't we then have incidents of turning cherry pickers over?

It's safe attitudes we need. We'd use the right kit and procedure then.

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Yup, number of sites I've been on with a blanket ban on ladders purely because they don't understand "most appropriate tool for the job!" One of my favourites being a house renovation/rebuild where they built a scaffold tower on a staircase so that I could access a skylight above... trouble was that the tower filled the staircase so that not only could you not get past the tower, you couldn't even get onto it safely! The best bit was that I only needed to go up to attach four wires to an actuator and three to a sensor!

Goweresque said:

Given that a large proportion of the farm fatalities are falls from height and being crushed by livestock I would say the best thing they could do would be give all farm businesses under a certain size a free cherry picker and a cattle handling system (if they have livestock for the latter of course). Use the budget that current pays for machinery productivity grants.

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Scottish government giving 50% to crushes, head scoops, food trimming at present.
If you look at Hse reports of falls they are often far lower than a cherry picker would be used. Combine steps for instance.
I know of 2 fatalities where one fell 8 feet through a roof and another off a silage pit.

7610 super q said:

I wish we could nail this crap on the head. Not all of us receive big subsidy payments. Some of us get nothing at all.

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Why would you get nothing , are you not active ?
I used to get a big sub check for keeping bull beef . I'm lucky to still be here to say that ,very lucky, as is my worker . The sub check nearly killed me [emoji23]

Main thing I think is overconfidence, and even if they read the instructions, it doesn't apply to them, ' I have been doing this for years, but I have never had an accident', and the need to save money and make do with what equipment or not you have, or not ask for an extra pair of hands. I used to do shifts on a neuro ward and the amount of people who fall off ladders at the weekend, doing something they have had no training or experience for is an eye opener.

Trouble is farming for a lot of people is not just a job, it's an extension of everyday life, so lines get blurred, there is no one watching your everyday practice. If you lived above a pub, as soon as you open up what you do is watched by other people, and you have to follow the law, or risk losing your licence.

holwellcourtfarm said:

Not intending to knock the idea but wouldn't we then have incidents of turning cherry pickers over?

It's safe attitudes we need. We'd use the right kit and procedure then.

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What are you saying? That cherry pickers are not 'safe'? Whats the point of all this 'Don't use telehandlers' stuff we get fed all the time then? Which is safer, a man on a ladder, a man in the bucket of a telehandler, a man in a man cage on a telehandler that isn't LOLER'd, a man in a man cage on a telehandler that is LOLER'd or a man in a new cherry picker?

We appear to have got into a situation whereby objectively safer methods (eg man cage on a telehandler) are now illegal unless you jump through a gazillion hoops, but a ladder is perfectly fine, though (IMO) it's the most dangerous way you can work at height there is. Instead of being required to make an objective assessment of what is safe or not, it has become a typical bureaucratic process whereby bits of paper are more important than actual safety. If you've got all the bits of paper you can behave like tw*ts and if an accident happens you're golden. Do something entirely safely without incident without the correct bits of paper and you might as well be Harold Shipman.

The tractor speed / weight thing has been done to death and relatively easily solved.

Everything carries on as normal with the same rules enforced.

BUT alongside an opt in system, with a per vehicle annual test. Trailers would be allocated a C number same as HGV. Driver has C+E. Tractor has tacho unit so in event of accident speeds could be logged.

Then anyone can pick and choose what they want. Eg you could have one tractor and trailer in the hier tier and the rest in the lower tier. If you didn’t think the investment/ training was worth it, stay on the lower tier.

Unfortunately we won’t get anything like this anytime soon, they shelved the higher weight plans back in 2016? I think. Since then with covid and Brexit I think it’ll be another 15 years before the government have any time to bother with anything like this.

Goweresque said:

What are you saying? That cherry pickers are not 'safe'? Whats the point of all this 'Don't use telehandlers' stuff we get fed all the time then? Which is safer, a man on a ladder, a man in the bucket of a telehandler, a man in a man cage on a telehandler that isn't LOLER'd, a man in a man cage on a telehandler that is LOLER'd or a man in a new cherry picker?

We appear to have got into a situation whereby objectively safer methods (eg man cage on a telehandler) are now illegal unless you jump through a gazillion hoops, but a ladder is perfectly fine, though (IMO) it's the most dangerous way you can work at height there is. Instead of being required to make an objective assessment of what is safe or not, it has become a typical bureaucratic process whereby bits of paper are more important than actual safety. If you've got all the bits of paper you can behave like tw*ts and if an accident happens you're golden. Do something entirely safely without incident without the correct bits of paper and you might as well be Harold Shipman.

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Mad, isn't it?

I'm just saying that the self propelled cherry pickers are unstable if moving when raised (much like a telehandler) and designed for use on flat concrete but some farms would use them on uneven surfaces....

It's generally not the tool that's dangerous, it's how it's used (or maintained).

Goweresque said:

What are you saying? That cherry pickers are not 'safe'? Whats the point of all this 'Don't use telehandlers' stuff we get fed all the time then? Which is safer, a man on a ladder, a man in the bucket of a telehandler, a man in a man cage on a telehandler that isn't LOLER'd, a man in a man cage on a telehandler that is LOLER'd or a man in a new cherry picker?

We appear to have got into a situation whereby objectively safer methods (eg man cage on a telehandler) are now illegal unless you jump through a gazillion hoops, but a ladder is perfectly fine, though (IMO) it's the most dangerous way you can work at height there is. Instead of being required to make an objective assessment of what is safe or not, it has become a typical bureaucratic process whereby bits of paper are more important than actual safety. If you've got all the bits of paper you can behave like tw*ts and if an accident happens you're golden. Do something entirely safely without incident without the correct bits of paper and you might as well be Harold Shipman.

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Mainly because we have allowed individual interpretation to be used. " it is not safe to use a ladder, unless you have been trained " what rubbish.

A ladder used all day on a site, is different to be it being used in an isolated situation very infrequently. So, proportionality has to be considered. The H&S people understand and appreciate this, however individual H&S freaks always go to the extreme.

Working at height, working alone, working in a confined space are all amongst many H&S advisories that are abused at times by the wrong interpretation. In other words it's OK in the right situation.

There are many practical things that have been suggested so far but to me the simplest thing that needs to change that would have the biggest influence and results are attitudes.

1. Admit there is a problem, HSE death statistics don’t lie,
2. Accept that, as an industry, we have a collective and individual responsibility for that problem and that it is not everyone else at fault doing things wrong and not me and won’t happen to me because I am better than everyone else..
Realise that accepting there is a problem does not mean you are less of a Man / Woman ( although the problem is predominantly male ). Thus reducing the Gung Ho!! Look at me I am a hero and don’t need any of that Health and Safety stuff holding me back , attitude and we may well find it improves things without actually holding anyone back.

As has already been said some accidents are simply accidents , they happen every day somewhere .
Some are falls generally , with hindsight, avoidable.
Livestock , very unpredictable and difficult to allow for all eventualities especially when , after all, the second party literally has a mind of its own.
Machinery , lack of or poor maintenance again with hind sight avoidable .
Lack of training.
Operator error , momentary lapse in concentration , we have all done it ,rushing on with our mind on the next step or next job and having that Oh Fudge !! moment doing the most stupid of things by mistake. .
Thankfully 99% of us have gotten away with it with possibly only a repair bill to regret over but it does only take a second to change, or end , your or someone else’s life.
We live in an ever more letigous society , where there is blame , or even the hint of blame, in fact a decent lawyer only has to imply the merest hint of blame or responsibility nowadays and your insurance will walk and you will be left to sell up to pay out the damages.
Happened to a farmer who had builders in working installing some kit (Parlour / Grain dryer ) cannot remember but they were in under the selling agents instruction and responsibilities as part of the deal to fit said kit.
Farmer got couple of the lads to come in at weekends and do some jobs for cash , one fell through a roof and broke his back , not covered under the original contract as they were not working under their instruction or knowledge.
Not covered by his insurance as he was responsible for their health and safety whilst on farm and well simply didn’t bother .
Long and short of it between health and safety breaches and fines and the unfortunate lads lawyers he basically had to sell up and retire in order to pay out all the legal costs , and all to save a few quid rather than getting it done through the contractor officially.
Over and above that Corporate Manslaughter is now a very real thing in today’s business world is it really worth sharing a cell for a year or two to save an hour or two of time or a few quid to pay “ Cash to save a few quid.
I am amazed we have got away with it for so long , if the statistics we have were applied to any other public business sector and the fatalities were of Joe Public , man in the street, there would be an absolute outcry.
Perhaps because we are out of sight out of mind of the general populous it seems to be allowed to slide but it shouldn’t be .
No one is perfect but with a little effort we could all
be a little better and anything that reduces the,frankly shocking, statistics has got to be a good thing.
I was going to start myself tomorrow but I have too much on maybe Monday .................... and there, in one flippent tongue in cheek comment, lies the second problem.

Goweresque said:

We appear to have got into a situation whereby objectively safer methods (eg man cage on a telehandler) are now illegal unless you jump through a gazillion hoops, but a ladder is perfectly fine, though (IMO) it's the most dangerous way you can work at height there is. Instead of being required to make an objective assessment of what is safe or not, it has become a typical bureaucratic process whereby bits of paper are more important than actual safety.

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With respect, if you think that then you don’t understand the law. Do a risk assessment (which doesn’t even usually need to be written, for typical farm situation) and then follow the outcome. The most appropriate tool will depend on the situation but might be a ladder, a scaffold or a helicopter.

Goweresque said:

What are you saying? That cherry pickers are not 'safe'? Whats the point of all this 'Don't use telehandlers' stuff we get fed all the time then? Which is safer, a man on a ladder, a man in the bucket of a telehandler, a man in a man cage on a telehandler that isn't LOLER'd, a man in a man cage on a telehandler that is LOLER'd or a man in a new cherry picker?

We appear to have got into a situation whereby objectively safer methods (eg man cage on a telehandler) are now illegal unless you jump through a gazillion hoops, but a ladder is perfectly fine, though (IMO) it's the most dangerous way you can work at height there is. Instead of being required to make an objective assessment of what is safe or not, it has become a typical bureaucratic process whereby bits of paper are more important than actual safety. If you've got all the bits of paper you can behave like tw*ts and if an accident happens you're golden. Do something entirely safely without incident without the correct bits of paper and you might as well be Harold Shipman.

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Doesn’t matter if it’s a cherry picker or loler tested loadall if there isn’t a plan in place stopping someone getting out onto a roof then there is a potential problem
It’s not rocket science or even beyond the financial reach of any business. Get a bloody harness with a 6ft lanyard and make sure it is connected to the basket
less than a minute to put on
How can anyone argue farm business’s can’t either afford the time or expense ?

Screwfix (and plenty of other outlets) sells certified fall arrest harness kits from £50. If you can't afford that you really are in financial trouble.