Bull warranty.. Or not.

Agrivator · May 31, 2021

M-J-G said:
When someone sells what's classed as a breeding bull, it must be as described.

It's basic trade descriptions

Selling a bull that turns out to be infertile isn't the worst crime a breeder can commit.

It's nowhere near as bad as the claim that 'his calves just pop out'' - when the reality is often very different.

And we should all be aware that over-fed pumped-up bulls at pedigree sales can be infertile or take badly to living in the real world. Treat pedigree breeders like scrap dealers or estate agents or lawyers - not to be trusted until proven innocent.

Estuarybeef · May 31, 2021

som farmer said:
should that really make a difference, as he obviously failed to make the reserve, he must have passed the 'inspection', the seller was a member, bulls sell by looks, and recommendation, if a reputable breeder, whether sold through the ring, or outside, he should stand behind his stock, a reputation is easily lost. Can understand the auctioneers not being over helpful, if the money didn't go through them.

Bought after the sale and paid through h and h.

d williams · May 31, 2021

som farmer said:
l have done quite a bit of 'on farm' buying, over the years, always did it through auctioneers, do a deal, ring auctioneers, tell them, as they wouldn't know anything about it, job done, seller happy, auctioneer had a cut, we pay auctioneers, job done, more importantly, seller knew he would get paid..
Very different subject, just watched a fish and chip shop, that has used 3 tons of spuds, so far this bank holiday, l cant visualise 3 ton of chips !!!!!!!!!!!!!

That’s a few quid large bag chips £2:50
Bet he’s earned the most out of that ton

M-J-G · May 31, 2021

Agrivator said:
Selling a bull that turns out to be infertile isn't the worst crime a breeder can commit.

It's nowhere near as bad as the claim that 'his calves just pop out'' - when the reality is often very different.

And we should all be aware that over-fed pumped-up bulls at pedigree sales can be infertile or take badly to living in the real world. Treat pedigree breeders like scrap dealers or estate agents or lawyers - not to be trusted until proven innocent.

Now we have a firm grasp of the obvious!

Just read the Lim cheating thread(s) for examples.

som farmer · May 31, 2021

there are two types of pedigree breeders, those that want rosettes, and stupid prices, and the good sensible honest ones, regrettably, the former seem to achieve higher prices than the latter. The people to blame for that, are farmers, their eyes are drawn to the biggest, fattiest sleekest, and dearest, usually knowing they have been pumped full of conc to get there, same is pretty well right through the livestock trade, lots of rosettes, and expensive, simply means, 'it's got to be the best'.
As post above, lims are a classic case, with the jaegarbomb bull, excuse spelling, and l would say, there is similar, l expect manipulation might occur, in all ped breeding. The best buys, are always in their 'proper working clothes', from someone you trust. The really stupid thing about the jager bull, he was a damn good bull, anyway.

TurnipTowsend · May 31, 2021

You get what you deserve in Life ! Lurking round the pens at the end of the sale looking for distress goods, you certainly ran into someone with a similar outlook to yourself.
There were some top vendors there with quality bulls selling easily. The unsold bulls major weaknesses were generally on the end of the halter

Skintagain · May 31, 2021

TurnipTowsend said:
You get what you deserve in Life ! Lurking round the pens at the end of the sale looking for distress goods, you certainly ran into someone with a similar outlook to yourself.
There were some top vendors there with quality bulls selling easily. The unsold bulls major weaknesses were generally on the end of the halter

I think this one has a bit of a weakness between his legs

top char · Jun 1, 2021

TurnipTowsend said:
You get what you deserve in Life ! Lurking round the pens at the end of the sale looking for distress goods, you certainly ran into someone with a similar outlook to yourself.
There were some top vendors there with quality bulls selling easily. The unsold bulls major weaknesses were generally on the end of the halter

This can happen to the best of farmers though, wait for the bulls they pick near the end of a sale then they make far more money than they ever imagined! All the juniors were flying at this sale.

Seems to be the bigger the pedigree breeder the harder they are to deal with, but they are selling more bulls so having more bad experiences with problem buyers! There's a minority in every scenario that make life harder for the majority. If the breeder in this case wasn't prepared to refund the purchaser and take the bull straight back after that vet report, least he could have done was sorted out a bull to tide him over til the 6 cows were eventually at scanning stage.
We try and give every bull we sell a cow or two and see that they are fit to serve and settle them. Better than any semen test, but i know big breeders couldn't mess about with this. Purchasers see a semen tested sign on the gates of pens or in catalogues, but i don't know many that request the actual result of the test. If i had sold this bull i would be telling the purchaser to get him away fat asap and sending him a cheque for the £14-£1600 difference and saving my reputation, offering him another bull if i had one or helping him find another.

Bipper · Jun 1, 2021

Any update on this, I would be surprised if the society and breeder werent aware by now?

Having been a seller I always felt the auctioneers sided with buyers and I know we have been done before withheifers sold who they claimed werent in calf etc, we ened up refunding but pretty sure there was nothing wrong when she left.

Estuarybeef · Jun 1, 2021

TurnipTowsend said:
You get what you deserve in Life ! Lurking round the pens at the end of the sale looking for distress goods, you certainly ran into someone with a similar outlook to yourself.
There were some top vendors there with quality bulls selling easily. The unsold bulls major weaknesses were generally on the end of the halter

I drove 6 hours to buy four bulls out of a catalogue with 88 in.. when I had only bought 2 out of the ring when the final bull went through (56 I think) I needed to make the number up somehow?

TurnipTowsend · Jun 1, 2021

Well you bought them at a budget ! 5 Charolais Bulls for 16000gns. You only need look down the catalogue to identify the 5 you took home. No other Purchaser got a look in against you. Kill him & put it down to experience , maybe Welshpool for a bargain next time .

neilo · Jun 1, 2021

TurnipTowsend said:
Well you bought them at a budget ! 5 Charolais Bulls for 16000gns. You only need look down the catalogue to identify the 5 you took home. No other Purchaser got a look in against you. Kill him & put it down to experience , maybe Welshpool for a bargain next time .

What’s price got to do with anything? If the bull was sold as a breeding bull then he needs to be fit for that purpose, which clearly this one isn’t. It make no odds if he was £3k or £30k.

The only time a purchaser should have to ‘take it on the chin’ or ‘put it down to experience’ is if he bought out of the culls, or out of the fat.

Clearly some breeders lack integrity and couldn’t give a toss about their reputation. What a sorry state of affairs when that behaviour is defended as being acceptable.

Skintagain · Jun 1, 2021

TurnipTowsend said:
Well you bought them at a budget ! 5 Charolais Bulls for 16000gns. You only need look down the catalogue to identify the 5 you took home. No other Purchaser got a look in against you. Kill him & put it down to experience , maybe Welshpool for a bargain next time .

I wouldn’t call £3200 for a steer a bargain

sheep breeder · Jun 1, 2021

Bill the Bass said:
Because not all purchasers are innocent, some are right strokers trying it on, been there too. Needs to be fair for both purchaser and vendor and the bull needs chance to settle. Electro ejaculators are a hit and miss affair.

The man bought the bull at a society sale for a fair price and hope the bull to perform to the verbal guarantees he was give. If the bull is a Jaffa as per the vet with the letters after his name has stated. Don’t see much point in letting the bull stupidly settle.

choochter · Jun 1, 2021

What a dismal, unedifying thread this is.

Hope that the OP gets some resolution to this to his satisfaction.

Glad I breed my own bulls.

tepapa · Jun 1, 2021

My argument would have to be, what if you only had 30 cows? and only needed one bull.

Are you supposed to try him with 6 cows. What about your whole breeding program for the season? By the time you find out he's a dud your calving plans gone out the window. If you buy a bull to work, you'd expect him to work.

sodbuster · Jun 1, 2021

I had vet here today testing a couple of bulls. I mentioned to her about this. She said the semen sample given was made 9 weeks ago, so any abnormalities with that semen is also 9 weeks old. So regards to the op the bull in question has had the problem for far longer than he has owned him. Surely the breeder hasn't a leg to stand on.

Skintagain · Jun 1, 2021

tepapa said:
My argument would have to be, what if you only had 30 cows? and only needed one bull.

Are you supposed to try him with 6 cows. What about your whole breeding program for the season? By the time you find out he's a dud your calving plans gone out the window. If you buy a bull to work, you'd expect him to work.

My argument would be ‘you sold me a bull that you guaranteed and it’s not right so whether you like it or not mr breeder he’s coming back’.

I would be sat in his yard with the trailer on. Mr breeder ought to offer money back or a swap for another. None of this fannying about. Longer it goes on the harder it is to sort. Breeder is just stalling hoping @Estuarybeef goes away

but still there could be another side to this

Raider112 · Jun 1, 2021

TurnipTowsend said:
Well you bought them at a budget ! 5 Charolais Bulls for 16000gns. You only need look down the catalogue to identify the 5 you took home. No other Purchaser got a look in against you. Kill him & put it down to experience , maybe Welshpool for a bargain next time .

We all have opinions but I'm surprised anybody has that one.

Bill the Bass · Jun 1, 2021

sheep breeder said:
The man bought the bull at a society sale for a fair price and hope the bull to perform to the verbal guarantees he was give. If the bull is a Jaffa as per the vet with the letters after his name has stated. Don’t see much point in letting the bull stupidly settle.

Here are the conditions of the NBA warranty, these are pretty much the basis of the conditions of the sale, always read out by the auctioneer at the start of the sale and clearly referred to in the catalogue;

https://www.nationalbeefassociation.com/workspace/pdfs/original-auction-warranty.pdf

You can fanny on about ‘I would do this, I would do that’ but legally these are the conditions of sale, end of.

For what it’s worth, in my opinion, anyone who buys a virgin bull at a May sale and expects it to go and serve 30 plus cows in the following 9 weeks without bother is just asking for trouble. It might not be right, but that’s just how it is. Man up and deal with it, plan your job accordingly.

In this case however, as I said in the first post I contributed, given the op bought 4 bulls at one sale, the BCCS should be looking after or at least helping him.

Bull warranty.. Or not.

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