"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

Poorbuthappy

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
Hay being the elephant in the room on this one.

How many of the 'mob grazing' gurus seen on youtube and the like are buying in 4-6 months of feed per year while simultainously talking up the incredible productivity of their pastures? Importing fertility while exporting our problems. Might make financial sense, but sounds pretty degenerative to me.

I've said before I cant really see the difference in buying in hay to buying in concentrates.
I've done/ do both so not having a go at anyone, but just question it in my mind as I seek to improve things.
 

Fenwick

Member
Location
Bretagne France
degenerative somewhere else so that don't matter.

I'm not sure if that was sacarsm or not. So apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick.

Of course, degenerative somewhere else does matter.

Problems outside of our area of concern (and in this case it is only short term), but within our area of influence do matter.
Imagine if I was buying in non organic feed for my organic operation, there would be uproar! But it wouldn't be me using the pesticides etc, so that ok.

Low wages, zero working hours contracts, poor living conditions, habitat destruction, are out of my area of concern, but it doesn't mean my choices don't have an influence.

I don' like this I'm alright jack so sort yourself out,. (might well be speaking german now with that attitude).

Everything is interelated, a hollistic view of the world is so important. I do care about things that don't directly affect me (yet) and I am not ashamed to say so. I care about you guys and your farms and your future, I care about the future of my children I want a better world. Nothing so wrong in that.

if it wasn't for making winter feed the job would be easy

You are right about the winter feed. If it wasn't for that the job would be easy (well easier).

Which makes me think of @holwellcourtfarm and his post concerning waste management and recycling. The first two being eliminate and reduce.

Could we not apply these two principles to stocked winter feed, and have that 'easy job'? Sounds good to me.
 

Fenwick

Member
Location
Bretagne France
you can spend on allsorts of inputs, fodder, concentrates, fert, seeds, metal, equipment, fuel all of which may well be degenerative somewhere but which if any is holistically best to do depends on how big a picture you want to look at

That's a great point, and I don't know where the balance is. I'm not sure it is easy or even feasible to work out either.

But I think that it is important to try and eliminate and reduce many of these things as an where possible.
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
That's a great point, and I don't know where the balance is. I'm not sure it is easy or even feasible to work out either.

But I think that it is important to try and eliminate and reduce many of these things as an where possible.
Holistic is everything but is that everything on your farm or your in your influence or the whole world or the universe, is it just now or the rest of time, if I the whole universe and the rest of time does it really matter what I do in the grand scheme of things when everything falls back in on itself and ends up the size of a pin head, take this thinking to the limit and all you get is :scratchhead:
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Not paid in just kg/acre beef sold though, some kg's are worth more than others.
kg of breeding stock, might be worth more, but l wouldn't think there is much difference in properly finished prime beef. The big problem with the UK beef farming, is it's lack of uniformity, you only have to walk through the store, or prime pens, at a mkt, to see that, liquorice allsorts.
Imagine being the beef buyer, for a large s/mkt, you want, x tons of beef carcases, all same size, to chop up, into various standard size packs, then think about the USA feed lots, where virtually all the stock, is of the same size/type, and a standard pack, killing x 1,000 per day. The buyer would struggle to find enough same spec cattle, or, he could order any number, certain of the same spec, with 1 call. And l would suggest the lack of uniformity, is one basic fact, why imported beef, is cheaper than UK product.
Lad around here, managed a farm, running sucklers, who were AA out of grass rat dairy cows, from next door, so he had 300 cows, all same size, 450 kg, all put to AA bulls, AI and natural, calving in a 60 day window, fattened all the hfrs, on grass, for a premium contract, steers, either store, or fat, depending on trade, all gone by 24 months, all on grass, with no housing. So basically 2x450kg =900, or 1 900kg cont cow.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
That's a great point, and I don't know where the balance is. I'm not sure it is easy or even feasible to work out either.

But I think that it is important to try and eliminate and reduce many of these things as an where possible.
BALANCE is the key word, you need to get the 'balance' point, between modern imputs, your lifestyle needs, profitability, and your 'ideal' farming system. It's also the great thing about regen farming, there are no hard and fast rules, just varying levels that suit you.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Is that a problem though, I was there yesterday and they all sold, variety is the spice of life
yes, it is a huge problem, but not appreciated, and costly. Take as an example, US massive feed lot group, with attached abattoir, killing 5,000 beef a day, every animal within a few kilos in weight, and 1 size box, for each joint/cut. You buy for a retail mkt, you can order x boxes, knowing each box is the same, which means s/mkts have exactly what they want, without trimming, re-cutting etc, = standard size pack, for housewife, that is not possible to do, in the UK. Uniform size, is the cheapest way, of dealing with the product, after it has left the farm. Same old story, produce what the buyer want's, not what you think it want's.
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
yes, it is a huge problem, but not appreciated, and costly. Take as an example, US massive feed lot group, with attached abattoir, killing 5,000 beef a day, every animal within a few kilos in weight, and 1 size box, for each joint/cut. You buy for a retail mkt, you can order x boxes, knowing each box is the same, which means s/mkts have exactly what they want, without trimming, re-cutting etc, = standard size pack, for housewife, that is not possible to do, in the UK. Uniform size, is the cheapest way, of dealing with the product, after it has left the farm. Same old story, produce what the buyer want's, not what you think it want's.
I look at it the other way round, go down that route and all you get is big business control and the farmer screwed on price.
Produce what people want not what some controlling fecking supermarket wants
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Why do some want everything the same and can't see a £ in something different
you are looking at it, from the wrong end, nothing to do with farming, that finishes when you sell the animal.
It's what happens after that, and that is marketing, mass production, of anything, is the cheapest form of manufacturing, each 'bit' being exactly the same. Buyers need a product, they can rely on, to meet their spec, housewives buy product, relying on it being the 'same' all the time.
Cant really get the right words to explain it, as it was explained to me, by the manager, of a large sourcing operation, if all same spec, in 1 order, from 1 source, that is the cheapest way to purchase, for him, and his customers. As soon as he has to ring several operations, to bulk a order up, to same spec, price goes up- haulage, handling etc, that extra cost, is not absorbed by him, or his custom base, or even, in beef, the abattoir, it is the producer that pays. Might not seem much per animal, but multiplied by millions, it adds up to very large sums.
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
you are looking at it, from the wrong end, nothing to do with farming, that finishes when you sell the animal.
It's what happens after that, and that is marketing, mass production, of anything, is the cheapest form of manufacturing, each 'bit' being exactly the same. Buyers need a product, they can rely on, to meet their spec, housewives buy product, relying on it being the 'same' all the time.
Cant really get the right words to explain it, as it was explained to me, by the manager, of a large sourcing operation, if all same spec, in 1 order, from 1 source, that is the cheapest way to purchase, for him, and his customers. As soon as he has to ring several operations, to bulk a order up, to same spec, price goes up- haulage, handling etc, that extra cost, is not absorbed by him, or his custom base, or even, in beef, the abattoir, it is the producer that pays. Might not seem much per animal, but multiplied by millions, it adds up to very large sums.
so you think producing everything the same at the beck and call of the supermarkets like the pig/chicken/veg and dairy has done is the right call, OK.
think we may have to agree to disagree
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
so you think producing everything the same at the beck and call of the supermarkets like the pig/chicken/veg and dairy has done is the right call, OK.
think we may have to agree to disagree
customer is always right, till its gen public. What we think trifling, multiplied by millions, become huge sums, everything sold by the major retailers, is subject to massive research, to maximise profit, that includes size, shape and weight, colour can be added, to enhance appearance.
Not saying l agree with it, but that is how it works. It's massive industry, applying savings of economy, in bulk, the less they have to do, to a product, more profit. Tescoes alone, has 10% of food sales, in the UK, if they say jump, processors jump.
As farmers, we produce what we want to, and hope for a good price, when we sell. If you look at any supply contract, milk, beef, chicken or lamb, the top price paid, is when you meet their ideal spec, price works down from there.
 

martian

DD Moderator
BASE UK Member
Location
N Herts
The supermarkets are not our friends. If we all produced a uniform product which fitted perfectly into their horrible polystyrene packs, do you honestly think we'd all be paid top dollar? The food system is dysfunctional and farmers get the smallest amount out of it. Rather than bowing and scraping before our masters, we should concentrate on producing good food and selling it to our neighbours. Colin Tudge in his brilliant new book, The Great Rethink, talks about his vision of the only realistic future for humanity which is 'a convivial society in a flourishing biosphere' which, when you think about it, is a thoroughly pleasing and achievable ambition. Farmers are nicely poised to be the super-heroes of a benign future, not just through carbon sequestration etc, but also because increasingly everyone is going to need good, locally produced food, growing commodities for multi-nationals is economic suicide and doesn't much help the planet, or its inhabitants.
 

Fenwick

Member
Location
Bretagne France
customer is always right, till its gen public. What we think trifling, multiplied by millions, become huge sums, everything sold by the major retailers, is subject to massive research, to maximise profit, that includes size, shape and weight, colour can be added, to enhance appearance.
Not saying l agree with it, but that is how it works. It's massive industry, applying savings of economy, in bulk, the less they have to do, to a product, more profit. Tescoes alone, has 10% of food sales, in the UK, if they say jump, processors jump.

The retailers and industry work hard to tell customers what they want.

When I started selling rosé veal, it was really difficult as customers wanted 'white' meat, as this is considered a sign of quality. This is sales pitch used by industry, retail and butchers.
Of course we know this is not the case, but in order to industrialise the process and produce ever more cheaply the animals were held inside in cramped individual pens away from grass and fed milk powder by machine.

To appreciate the scale of this one must appreciate that the EUROP price grid takes this into account with a scale of 1-5 for the meat colour. 1 being white and 5 being deep red.
When my animals are too darK (3) I lose 1€/kg carcass.

This led to some unscrupulous activities in order to whiten the meat. Feeding the animals bleach, draining blood etc.

Even now I am supposed to prevent my veal calves having access to grass in order to meat the demands of the cooperative. (I have refused, and for the moment they are still taking my animals).

So when I wanted to direct sell rosé veal, I had to convince my potential clients that my product wasn't utter shite. Which I did, mostly by being transparent about how the animals are raised.


As farmers, we produce what we want to, and hope for a good price, when we sell. If you look at any supply contract, milk, beef, chicken or lamb, the top price paid, is when you meet their ideal spec, price works down from there.

Which is why direct selling is so useful. Price maker, not price taker.
 

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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