"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

som farmer · Sep 4, 2021

holwellcourtfarm said:
The thing we all struggle with is mixing it up; not selling on a 'recipe'. It's human nature to adopt a pattern so it's a struggle to avoid it.

That's a large part of keeping records I think, to avoid doing the same thing as last time in the same place.

Experimentation is essential for us all as no 2 farms or fields are identical. That's also another reason why commercial trials are such a problem, they assume that all fields ARE equal. Modern research science doesn't seem to know how to break that constraint as it is all based on studying a single influence and "controlling" for every other factor. In nature, that's just not possible.

most of us, are feeling our way through this, as 'novices', and a lot of trial and error occurs, and we each need to find a solution, that suits, both us, and our farms, and we all know each farm is different.
While l think it is better, not to have a 'rule book' on how you should do it, that does mean there is a widely different set of people, each saying, their way is 'best', and most of them are successful in 'their' way. Which doesn't mean it will work 'best' for us, it might actually be better/easier if there was a rule book !
The other side of that coin, means we have lots of info, from lots of people, that have taken a different path, to get to where they, want to be. So, perhaps for us, is it better to aim for a target, and work backwards from that, rather than try aiming for it, to begin with. It must be remembered, a lot of these people, have vastly more acres, than most of us, to experiment on.
Modern farming, has taken us down a road, that is becoming more disagreeable to an increasing number of people, with some justification. And l am not sure it is sustainable anyway, as more and more information is published, we are just cashing in on the soils fertility, that is not endless, and in many places, decreasing rapidly. And yet, we are required to produce cheap food, the two, make for an impossible solution, or, does it ?
While we shudder at the thought of eating machine grown 'meat', and aquatic multi tier growing units, that is where the future of food production lies, unless people are prepared to pay, for 'proper' food, which they are not, so a compromise between the 2, will be a solution, must admit, l did laugh, reading an article, where the chinese had evolved a process, of making a synthetic egg, complete with yolk, that was not getting the 'praise' it merited, because it was cuboid, not oval.
reading the post above, what we now call stockpile, was called foggage, when at college mid 70's, and a recognised way of outwintering cattle, but then, stubble turnips, were a newish thing.

Woolless · Sep 4, 2021

som farmer said:
most of us, are feeling our way through this, as 'novices', and a lot of trial and error occurs, and we each need to find a solution, that suits, both us, and our farms, and we all know each farm is different.
While l think it is better, not to have a 'rule book' on how you should do it, that does mean there is a widely different set of people, each saying, their way is 'best', and most of them are successful in 'their' way. Which doesn't mean it will work 'best' for us, it might actually be better/easier if there was a rule book !
The other side of that coin, means we have lots of info, from lots of people, that have taken a different path, to get to where they, want to be. So, perhaps for us, is it better to aim for a target, and work backwards from that, rather than try aiming for it, to begin with. It must be remembered, a lot of these people, have vastly more acres, than most of us, to experiment on.
Modern farming, has taken us down a road, that is becoming more disagreeable to an increasing number of people, with some justification. And l am not sure it is sustainable anyway, as more and more information is published, we are just cashing in on the soils fertility, that is not endless, and in many places, decreasing rapidly. And yet, we are required to produce cheap food, the two, make for an impossible solution, or, does it ?
While we shudder at the thought of eating machine grown 'meat', and aquatic multi tier growing units, that is where the future of food production lies, unless people are prepared to pay, for 'proper' food, which they are not, so a compromise between the 2, will be a solution, must admit, l did laugh, reading an article, where the chinese had evolved a process, of making a synthetic egg, complete with yolk, that was not getting the 'praise' it merited, because it was cuboid, not oval.
reading the post above, what we now call stockpile, was called foggage, when at college mid 70's, and a recognised way of outwintering cattle, but then, stubble turnips, were a newish thing.

This is it. A rulebook is probably not possible or desirable but a bit more concrete info backed up with a bit of data would be good!

A square egg? Might be a niche market for that in Scotland to accompany square sliced sausage in a cooked breakfast!

holwellcourtfarm · Sep 4, 2021

Woolless said:
This is it. A rulebook is probably not possible or desirable but a bit more concrete info backed up with a bit of data would be good!

A square egg? Might be a niche market for that in Scotland to accompany square sliced sausage in a cooked breakfast!

Just think how efficiently they'd stack and transport.......

som farmer · Sep 4, 2021

Woolless said:
This is it. A rulebook is probably not possible or desirable but a bit more concrete info backed up with a bit of data would be good!

A square egg? Might be a niche market for that in Scotland to accompany square sliced sausage in a cooked breakfast!

the square egg, complete with yolk, is an incredible achievement, to fall flat, because it's not the right shape, in it's self incredible, although there was nothing mentioned on taste ! The whole side of 'synthetic' food, will be the future, of cheap bulk food, when l was at school, we were being told yeasts and fungi would be the future, that was 50 yrs ago, and world food supply, was a worry then, since then, all we have really done, is to intensify production, through science led chemicals, but the problem is still there.
On a completely different theme, below is a nice shot of a grazing field, what isn't showing up well, are the herb 'dockus lot of', the chicory was spun on, what it does show, the dockuslotof, hasn't run to seed, it was mown early may, so they have been either eaten off, or just put green leaf's. Being next to our buildings, this field has many uses, calving, emergency shite dump, holding cattle etc, basically abused, all sorts of grass seed, a lot IRG, has been spun on, without planning, result doesn't look bad.

Fenwick · Sep 4, 2021

exmoor dave said:
I've unwittingly ended up with some fairly over cooked pasture- dead seedhead and fresh growth coming up through, lots of yellow/brown base, to experiment with.
So it's been marked up for 0.25ha cells and 35 suckler cows, bull and calves are on it, with a very lax back fence, so far cattle seem happy, it's holding them for longer than I expected.
A huge amount of litter is left behind, a few wet days would be interesting to see how much litter could be trampled in.

We have been grazing the cow calf pair on some very 'overgrown' forage this year. (100 or even 180 day recoverys when 35 is the norm) and the animals have done well. You create a lot of biomass and a lot of litter, but the at certain densities the litter are stems and dying leaves with the cows grazing off all the best.

Woolless said:
I had a quick look at DR's website last night. I think he advocated the 'sabbath' area being burnt at the end of the year.
This kind of knits in with Jim Elizondo's thinking. He advocates grazing round your paddocks in the spring until the first paddock is ready to graze again. The ungrazed portion is left as stockpile, to be supplemented with protein if required when grazed in the non-growing season. I like that idea better than burning it! Starting in a different place each spring should mean that each paddock gets a chance for most of a season ungrazed. He reckons that this grows bigger roots (but these will of course pump out less sugars if the grass goes stemmy ).

The basic message of putting as much through a beast as possible seems sound, or it is just the rubbish left unmolested.

I think there is a little caveat here though. Both DR and JE are operating in mainly in hotter climates. Those of us working with cool C3 pastures have a lot more room for error, I would be suprised if you should need to suppliment with protein. Judging on our dung scores we are probably betwenn spot on and a bit to high on protein. But grazing deep does give us lots and lots of clover.

Woolless · Sep 4, 2021

Fenwick said:
We have been grazing the cow calf pair on some very 'overgrown' forage this year. (100 or even 180 day recoverys when 35 is the norm) and the animals have done well. You create a lot of biomass and a lot of litter, but the at certain densities the litter are stems and dying leaves with the cows grazing off all the best.

I think there is a little caveat here though. Both DR and JE are operating in mainly in hotter climates. Those of us working with cool C3 pastures have a lot more room for error, I would be suprised if you should need to suppliment with protein. Judging on our dung scores we are probably betwenn spot on and a bit to high on protein. But grazing deep does give us lots and lots of clover.

Yes, judging by what's growing back on what I hope to graze (early) winter, I doubt there will be much need for a supplement.

Bowland Bob · Sep 4, 2021

Woolless said:
Thanks for posting that Johnny, very interesting.

Previous to this, my basic premise was that the higher the density and the more frequent the moves, the better. This seems to throw that into doubt. And we're back to talking about 2-3 day breaks and crushed beer cans as grazing markers. It all seems very, well, conventional?

Thinking about what I have seen here, I have some beautiful, fresh regrowth on the first bit the cattle grazed. It was an odd shape and my estimate was well out. They ended up scalping it over five days. Some of the other best bits is where I grazed them to leave a calculated 1500kg DM residual.

A major issue to me with the regenerative scene is that there are a number of gurus, each trumpeting their approach as the truth, the way and the light. Dick Richardson is talking about doing trials on several different properties. I was persuaded by his approach and some supporting data would be even better.

What were your thoughts at the finish @exmoor dave?

Is it not that there's always a balance to be had, the difference between wooded environment and pasture environment, with resultant trampling from grazing, feeding the soil bacteria, degradation of stalks and dead grass do we not have both scenarios going on? Ian Mitchell Innes advocates the high densities, all that animal impact, 'magnetism' and poop kick starts the soil life while the resultant recovery time allows it to, well recover! In the video Dick talks of how much more water the grass uses during its rapid growth phase, surely this though, then helps with water retention. Which then with longer grass helps with sward density. Also, surely a part of the 'regenerative bit' is the longer grass, if kept vegetative surely these are the large solar panels with which we harvest the suns energy.
Down on the bottom farm we milk sheep, they get a fresh bite twice a day, I've been leaving more residual and the old saying 'grass grows grass' has certainly been the case this year.

Kiwi Pete · Sep 4, 2021

Fenwick said:
We have been grazing the cow calf pair on some very 'overgrown' forage this year. (100 or even 180 day recoverys when 35 is the norm) and the animals have done well. You create a lot of biomass and a lot of litter, but the at certain densities the litter are stems and dying leaves with the cows grazing off all the best.

I think there is a little caveat here though. Both DR and JE are operating in mainly in hotter climates. Those of us working with cool C3 pastures have a lot more room for error, I would be suprised if you should need to suppliment with protein. Judging on our dung scores we are probably between spot on and a bit to high on protein. But grazing deep does give us lots and lots of clover.

It's really difficult already to see the effects of "management" alone, just because it's all so forgiving and damp here. And of course none of the "weeds" have really woken up yet.

The main clue we now look for is what happens with bare soil, buttercup seems to quickly cover up bare soil so that's what we roll with. I believe you can regenerate land with ANY plant that grows, and many of our "weeds" are proof that it's actually happening without us

Kiwi Pete · Sep 4, 2021

Bowland Bob said:
Is it not that there's always a balance to be had, the difference between wooded environment and pasture environment, with resultant trampling from grazing, feeding the soil bacteria, degradation of stalks and dead grass do we not have both scenarios going on? Ian Mitchell Innes advocates the high densities, all that animal impact, 'magnetism' and poop kick starts the soil life while the resultant recovery time allows it to, well recover! In the video Dick talks of how much more water the grass uses during its rapid growth phase, surely this though, then helps with water retention. Which then with longer grass helps with sward density. Also, surely a part of the 'regenerative bit' is the longer grass, if kept vegetative surely these are the large solar panels with which we harvest the suns energy.
Down on the bottom farm we milk sheep, they get a fresh bite twice a day, I've been leaving more residual and the old saying 'grass grows grass' has certainly been the case this year.

Good grass grows anything!
There's an inverse relationship between rate of growth and how much exudate (and the quality /makeup of exudates) the plants produce, which is why we try to maintain relatively rapid vegetative growth. That "phase 2 growth" is peak root development, peak energy flow time, so we attempt to surf that wave to an extent

I used to be uncomfortable with "checking" grass and animals by grazing low, but now I realise that I was just at an inbetweeny stage, effectively subsidising the old-timer plants with our bank account.

As we see in agriculture, if nobody gives up, then nobody has a place to begin, succession is an important piece of the sustainability puzzle.

holwellcourtfarm · Sep 5, 2021

Bowland Bob said:
Is it not that there's always a balance to be had, the difference between wooded environment and pasture environment, with resultant trampling from grazing, feeding the soil bacteria, degradation of stalks and dead grass do we not have both scenarios going on? Ian Mitchell Innes advocates the high densities, all that animal impact, 'magnetism' and poop kick starts the soil life while the resultant recovery time allows it to, well recover! In the video Dick talks of how much more water the grass uses during its rapid growth phase, surely this though, then helps with water retention. Which then with longer grass helps with sward density. Also, surely a part of the 'regenerative bit' is the longer grass, if kept vegetative surely these are the large solar panels with which we harvest the suns energy.
Down on the bottom farm we milk sheep, they get a fresh bite twice a day, I've been leaving more residual and the old saying 'grass grows grass' has certainly been the case this year.

Many of these folk are talking from experience of water constrained landscapes though. Nowhere in the UK is really water constrained. Even the Eastern counties get plenty of rain if we get our soil health right and stop dumping it in the sea rapidly via drains and rivers.

In that context the high water need of grass at that growth stage is not ultimately a constraint for us here, hence our "sweet spot" may be further up the curve.

Kiwi Pete · Sep 5, 2021

holwellcourtfarm said:
Many of these folk are talking from experience of water constrained landscapes though. Nowhere in the UK is really water constrained. Even the Eastern counties get plenty of rain if we get our soil health right and stop dumping it in the sea rapidly via drains and rivers.

In that context the high water need of grass at that growth stage is not ultimately a constraint for us here, hence our "sweet spot" may be further up the curve.

Yes - it's entirely possible to actually have a weaker "small water cycle" whilst trying to actively aid it.
My biggy is the acidification of the soil surface by getting the litter "wrong", ie not having fresh litter but old dead stuff

I think we did the right thing going with the "just let it grow up" grazing paradigm but not to the extent we let the grazing become selective.

Nonselective grazing is the only thing worth getting out of bed for, IMO if you set out with the intention of allowing the stock to just eat the bits they want then you may as well just spread them out to save your time and energy, and go to town for some drugs

Henarar · Sep 6, 2021

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Told you the Elephants were to blame

som farmer · Sep 6, 2021

drying out again ! Avoided this since spring, first pic shows decreasing grass, second shows chicory and plantain, are doing better than the grass. Third one is some rape looking thirsty, this is above the first pic,
and had rather different treatment, it's a game cover, and we tipped trailor loads of muck there, and spread it with a tractor bucket, so a 'very' heavy application, we ran out of time, to spread per usual. The last pic, just around the corner, is where we have been irrigating with dirty water, it's a dry grass mix, c/foot, fesques etc, but no herbs, rather a difference, although, there are patches in the field, that look like pic one, we would have several acres beginning to go now, no ground moisture.

som farmer · Sep 6, 2021

where have the pics gone, l can't open them :scratchhead:

now they are back, why, oh why, does this happen to me

Kiwi Pete · Sep 6, 2021

How do you respond to drying out? Speed up or slow down

Crofter64 · Sep 6, 2021

som farmer said:
where have the pics gone, l can't open them
now they are back, why, oh why, does this happen to me

Don’t worry: It happens to most people born before 1975
What I hate is when I write a long email and then by mistake push undo and its gone. The rewrite is never as friendly as the original

Crofter64 · Sep 6, 2021

Kiwi Pete said:
How do you respond to drying out? Speed up or slow down

Slow down. I learnt a big lesson last year when we had no rain for weeks on end and I decided to ‘sacrifice’ a paddock by taking it right down over a long time period. When the rain finally came a few weeks later that paddock rebounded faster and better than the rest. Would this work in a brittle environment? I don’t know. What I do know is that eventually we do get rain some time or other, and I can count on that. This year we had a very dry spring and I did the same over the whole farm: moved slowly across the paddocks , taking quite a bit, but also leaving some cover,and when the rain came everything took off again.

som farmer · Sep 6, 2021

Kiwi Pete said:
How do you respond to drying out? Speed up or slow down

speed up, so they never bite anything down to tight, seems to keep growing a bit then, theory, bigger residual, allows a bit to add to root structure, we hope. At the moment, we have enough grass in the 'lower' fields, that's growing well, so not a problem yet, plus 70+ dry cows away. It's when it starts going may/june, that we start panicking !

som farmer · Sep 6, 2021

Crofter64 said:
Slow down. I learnt a big lesson last year when we had no rain for weeks on end and I decided to ‘sacrifice’ a paddock by taking it right down over a long time period. When the rain finally came a few weeks later that paddock rebounded faster and better than the rest. Would this work in a brittle environment? I don’t know. What I do know is that eventually we do get rain some time or other, and I can count on that. This year we had a very dry spring and I did the same over the whole farm: moved slowly across the paddocks , taking quite a bit, but also leaving some cover,and when the rain came everything took off again.

we tend to keep dry cows and i/c hfrs, very tight, and feel it does improve the sward, long term, and actually increases stocking density. This year, we have taken on 56 acres, 20 acres good grazing, but, not allowed electric fencing, so, good old set stocking. It's good soil, bit heavier than ours, but the dry cows, and y/s look really well up there. Cut 32 acres x 2, now it's all grazing. Perhaps we all have a lot to learn, about grazing/cutting management, there have been quite a lot, of 'new' ways, over the years, they all worked, till someone, rep?, talked us into the next best way. We should, perhaps, try and use the best bits of all of them.

hendrebc · Sep 7, 2021

Kiwi Pete said:
How do you respond to drying out? Speed up or slow down

Slow down. Get a bit more keen on getting rid of stuff. Lambs get priority and be a bit harder on the cows and/or dry ewes.

"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

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