Thoughts on loosing BPS and replacing with ELMS?

Jackov Altraids

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
This sums up how I see it. If the price of what we produce fails to plug the gap that is the loss of bps then it will be our service industries that will suffer first followed by the wider rural economy. Production will fall and the government will lack the tools to kick start it. If the supermarket shelves are empty then the government will fall. The supply of food has rarely been so precarious - the government should remember perhaps who keeps a those shelves stocked.

Brilliant post until the last bit, the government know that imports keep the shelves stocked.
What they have completely overlooked is how effective the subsidies have been for decades at fuelling the rural economy with little net cost as a large proportion of all that money ended up subsidising the food prices in shops.
On paper, removing this money and distributing between civil servants agencies and agents with the remaining amount 'improving the environment' seems a great idea.
When production collapses, food prices rise and rural economies are undermined, it will take decades to repair the damage, if it's possible to do so.
I'm not advocating continued subsidisation but highlighting that their removal has to be done in a controlled and well managed way. ELMS could do this but not in its current form.
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
Seeing as all countries have taken a hit with covid and also we are all in the same boat with global warming is Europe in a position to carry on with the subsidy that we all used to enjoy?

Has the EU not just agreed the new CAP policy, with subsidy carrying on much as before with a few tweaks, and a slight reduction?

It’s only our lot that achieving their long term aim of hanging the industry out to dry.
 

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
@farmerm Breaking which law? If you are suggesting that it is an offence to cut hedges before a certain date please quote chapter and verse. Also is this a summary or indictable offence and which is the prosecutions authority?
Well it might not currently be illegal to cut hedges outside the allowed periods its not exactly difficult to put such rules into law should they wish to impose control through fines not withheld payments... I believe its already illegal to harm nesting birds or destroy nests so there isn't much scope to play with in terms of cutting dates that would be outside the current rules but inside the law.
 

Jimdog1

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Devon
Who could argue with this commonsense statement...?

Oh yes, our Glorious Leaders, so wedded to the fantasy of Global Britain and free trade, aka cheap
Brilliant post until the last bit, the government know that imports keep the shelves stocked.
What they have completely overlooked is how effective the subsidies have been for decades at fuelling the rural economy with little net cost as a large proportion of all that money ended up subsidising the food prices in shops.
On paper, removing this money and distributing between civil servants agencies and agents with the remaining amount 'improving the environment' seems a great idea.
When production collapses, food prices rise and rural economies are undermined, it will take decades to repair the damage, if it's possible to do so.
I'm not advocating continued subsidisation but highlighting that their removal has to be done in a controlled and well managed way. ELMS could do this but not in its current form.
Sure, and I am not advocating a resumption of bps but basically we are looking at going cold turkey regarding subsidies which is fine if you are a net exporter of food but when you import as much as we do and you are putting your domestic producers on shaky ground......
As Delilah says, environment yes but also production.
 

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
How can they police our legal obligations?
We currently agree to any checks when we claim BPS. If a farmer doesn't sign any agreement, they will have no authority to check private property without a huge shift towards becoming a police state.
They will have to try and sell the principle of being policed by satellite which I'm not sure will be very popular with anybody.
I understand that authorities have powers to access businesses to make checks but how will they differentiate between a hedge in a field,park,garden etc.?
It will also cost a lot of time and money compared to the current situation where they can act as judge and jury and deduct payments.
If a government that has done everything possible to destroy British farming thinks that farmers will be cooperative to their wishes in the future, they will be rather mistaken.
How do government carry out checks on building sites for compliance with construction standards, take away businesses for compliance with food hygiene standards, engineering sites for compliance with and safety regulations or clothing factories for compliance with employment laws? What agreements do those sectors sign up to that give authority for such access? Those who think the threat of withholding subsidies is the only means to leverage control over an industry must be living on another planet! :scratchhead:
 

Jimdog1

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Devon
We seem to have gotten into the habit of exporting things that we find messy or distasteful or difficult to talk about. The proposed new coking plant is a great example, yet we need steel for railways etc. I don’t believe we will flourish as a newly independent country unless we have the balls to embrace ‘messy’ industry that produce what we in our western society demand. It just isn’t good enough to export the dirty bit. Slightly off topic I know but that is what uk agriculture could be facing.
 

Jackov Altraids

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
How do government carry out checks on building sites for compliance with construction standards, take away businesses for compliance with food hygiene standards, engineering sites for compliance with and safety regulations or clothing factories for compliance with employment laws? What agreements do those sectors sign up to that give authority for such access? Those who think the threat of withholding subsidies is the only means to leverage control over an industry must be living on another planet! :scratchhead:

Most of those would be covered as a place of work. Trying to legally define what land was a place of work or which hedges are included in such legislation is fraught with difficulties.
Enforcement would also be complex and how could fines be calculated when no quantifiable damage has been done in most cases. There isn't a restorative cost.
Having said all that, the answer to my question is Red Tractor. They aim to be the issuer of a licence to farm and they will revoke a licence for any such breach.
 

steveR

Member
Mixed Farmer
What a surprise..... :unsure:

We have warned them enough times, but although Defra are supposed to be watching and listening here, maybe they didn't believe the noisy bunch on TFF? Time for a re-jig.

Methinks that Janet will have some serious thinking to do....quickly. They have forgotten the mantra for co-operation, and a successful scheme..... KISS!!!
 
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Old Tup

Member
Caroline Lucas as deputy PM (y) .
Rubbish as ELMS in its current form is, I don't see much in there that supports any concerns, real or imaginary, about free trade.
You missed off your attachment.
You missed my point….
Government policy is to pursue an International Free Trade policy…this means sourcing whatever it is at the lowest possible price from wherever it is in the world.
The Government is intent on pursuing that route…whatever the consequences for UK producers.
ELMS is set to be nothing more than cosmetics applied the Cadaver of Farm Support…exactly as it has been designed to be.
DEFRA is nothing more than the conduit between actual Government and the countries farmers.
The policy is being dictated from a much higher level than DEFRA.
 

Old Tup

Member
No, I got your point. I just don't agree with it. I don't think that the way ELMS currently looks is a conspiracy, it's a cock up.
You've still missed off your attachment.
Never had an attachment….
You are very trusting…..
Politicians have the best interests of one person at heart……themselves and will do whatever it takes to climb and stay on the greasy ladder…
 

delilah

Member
Production will fall and the government will lack the tools to kick start it.

When production collapses, food prices rise and rural economies are undermined, it will take decades to repair the damage, if it's possible to do so.

Just to tie those two comments together, the greatest damage caused by ELMS could be through the accelerated hemorrhaging of knowledge. No industry can keep 'consolidating' year on year without a tipping point eventually being reached. Critical mass. Once you've lost it, I'm not sure that you can get it back even over decades.
 

Jimdog1

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Devon
No, I got your point. I just don't agree with it. I don't think that the way ELMS currently looks is a conspiracy, it's a cock up.
You've still missed off your attachment.
We are entering a new era with zero support. The 2 previous times this happened in the last century an unforeseen event occurred that nearly starved us as a nation even with our resources as the worlds biggest empire. A bit dramatic I know and you should always look to the future but equally keep half an eye on the past.🙂
 

Jimdog1

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Devon
Just to tie those two comments together, the greatest damage caused by ELMS could be through the accelerated hemorrhaging of knowledge. No industry can keep 'consolidating' year on year without a tipping point eventually being reached. Critical mass. Once you've lost it, I'm not sure that you can get it back even over decades.
In many ways uk agriculture has never been more vibrant with plenty of youth visible at all levels. But I think there is an ever increasing pressure on farmers to comply with regulations that our competitors with new or pending trade deals simply do not have. The RT crops thread is just one example and at some point this is all going to come to head.
 

delilah

Member

Well done to the NAO for accurately highlighting the issues at this early stage. Because it is still early, there's plenty of time to sort this. Am sending Mr Davies my suggestions fwiw, anyone who has put theirs to paper could do the same.
 

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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