Skills Shortage Will This Story Ever End?

DrWazzock · Oct 5, 2021

Well, engineering at university was pretty dry to be honest. Nothing but applied maths really. I started my career in industry in 1990 and finished it in 2005. Over that time my salary went from £10k to £23k as a full time employee of a multinational. Was senior engineer grade and chartered but still level pegging with a refuse collector on salary. To improve my salary I would have had to move into a management role. I had to move all over the country and live in some pretty rough places absolutely clogged with traffic.
I’d rather be farming anyway, but feel my generation have kind of messed up, or was it the generation before us.
It all went wrong from the moment Mrs T said that the city traders were the new “technologists” or whatever it was. Of the 70 engineering graduates who graduated with me, only 5 of us went into industry which was really struggling at the time with mass redundancies and closures.
The government decided in 1980 that it was no longer really interested in manufacturing or primary industries and so here we are today.
TBH I feel like I ought to open a factory and design and make something to make a positive contribution to society but the U.K. is quite hostile that kind of thing in terms of planning regulations etc. Don’t know. We are in a funny old place at the minute.

Fiacre · Oct 5, 2021

Yale said:
Is it really that surprising?

More than half of young people now going to university, figures show

Figures also show a gender gap, with women more likely to go to university than men

www.independent.co.uk

If university is so good at 'leveling up', how come 42% of graduates never earn enough to start paying back their tuition fees?

toquark · Oct 5, 2021

betweenthelines said:
In ten years we've gone from "Bloody foreigners coning over here taking our jobs" to "Why won't those bloody foreigners come over here and take our jobs?"

I don't think it was so much a case of protesting about the foreigners coming over, it was the fact that by coming over they were driving wages and living standards into the ground.

Yale · Oct 5, 2021

Fiacre said:
If university is so good at 'leveling up', how come 42% of graduates never earn enough to start paying back their tuition fees?

Exactly,a lot who go to uni would have better career choices by getting a trade or apprenticeship.

Tony Blair has a lot to answer for.

toquark · Oct 5, 2021

Yale said:
Tony Blair has a lot to answer for.

This must be the most commonly written sentence on this forum.

Completely true btw.

bluebell · Oct 5, 2021

he hasnt answered for the war the UK was in, on the reason? that saddam hussan had weapons of mass distruction? how they hunted for them high and low? but no they wernt or never were there in the first place? thousands of people died because of that?

bluebell · Oct 5, 2021

And after all that blair has the cheek, to get himself involved again with trying to influence public policy?

Bald Rick · Oct 5, 2021

betweenthelines said:
But the industry did feck all about the problem! If an industry can't sort itself out, why expect the Government to?

Do you expect Boris and Rishi to solve your starling problem?

Perhaps the hauliers thought "Well' if we do nothing, they'll have to let more overseas drivers come in, and we can keep wages low"

In ten years we've gone from "Bloody foreigners coning over here taking our jobs" to "Why won't those bloody foreigners come over here and take our jobs?"

But the industry did go to the government pleading to be allowed to bring foreign drivers in. However, that doesn't fit with Brexit so government dragged their heels until it reached crisis point.

All too late

Exfarmer · Oct 5, 2021

betweenthelines said:
But the industry did feck all about the problem! If an industry can't sort itself out, why expect the Government to?

Do you expect Boris and Rishi to solve your starling problem?

Perhaps the hauliers thought "Well' if we do nothing, they'll have to let more overseas drivers come in, and we can keep wages low"

In ten years we've gone from "Bloody foreigners coning over here taking our jobs" to "Why won't those bloody foreigners come over here and take our jobs?"

You seem to have forgotten the fact that the driver testing went into meltdown over the covid period for a start.
The next point is the lack of decent facilities, which most drivers who have given up say is the number one issue for them. If they cant gat somewhere to park with clean toilets a decent hot shower and a good meal at reasonable prices then they are not interested. No wonder the industry has to recruit from countries where a house with a a bathroom and indoor toilet is luxury. Perhaps we should blame those social reforms where people expect decent facilities.
The government has had years to sort this issue as it can only be done on a national scale

betweenthelines · Oct 5, 2021

The industry knew about the impending driver shortage 15 years ago and only reacted in the last few months, mainly by, as Baldy said, asking for overseas drivers to be allowed in. (Don't believe the stories about every haulier offering new recruits bags of gold to sign up either-there are national companies still trying to recruit with starting salaries of £20-£25k)

"Nights out" drivers are only a small percentage of the total HGV workforce and if the employers really wanted to improve conditions for these guys, they'd see what rates they could get for bulk booking rooms in the discount hotel chains.

Yes, the shortage of tests due to covid has had an impact but it's only exacerbated and existing shortage.

Lincsman · Oct 5, 2021

Bald Rick said:
But the industry did go to the government pleading to be allowed to bring foreign drivers in. However, that doesn't fit with Brexit so government dragged their heels until it reached crisis point.

All too late

Latest news is there isnt any available, oddly other countries dont have thousands of lorry drivers without lorries.

Bald Rick · Oct 5, 2021

betweenthelines said:
The industry knew about the impending driver shortage 15 years ago and only reacted in the last few months, mainly by, as Baldy said, asking for overseas drivers to be allowed in. (Don't believe the stories about every haulier offering new recruits bags of gold to sign up either-there are national companies still trying to recruit with starting salaries of £20-£25k)

"Nights out" drivers are only a small percentage of the total HGV workforce and if the employers really wanted to improve conditions for these guys, they'd see what rates they could get for bulk booking rooms in the discount hotel chains.

Yes, the shortage of tests due to covid has had an impact but it's only exacerbated and existing shortage.

The truth is that:

1) Facilities for trampers are appalling
2) Drivers, like farmers, are getting old
3) Pay is poor relative to work conditions
4) Roads are increasingly congested so they are under constant time pressure with the delivery culture developed by the supermarkets
5) Companies are using in-cab CCTV to monitor driver behaviour (& no one likes being spied on)
6) Lifestyle often leads to health problems

It's a pretty hard sell to attract anyone to take the jobs.
And the above applies to farming too. ££s are often a smaller part of job satisfaction

le bon paysan · Oct 5, 2021

Bald Rick said:
Bring back the day release technical colleges PDQ and bin off 60% of "universities".

We have this system here, works well. It's called BAC Professional. Daughters boyfriend did a BAC Pro.+2 . So 3 weeks paid work at a company and 2 weeks in tech. school. He's a qualified Welder, earns above basic pay.

The French Baccalaureate represents A levels. Bac +3 means you got a Bachelor at your University. Bac+ 5 means you got a Master (and +4 is Maitrise, I do not believe it exists in UK) In fact, the figure following "Bac" reflects the number of years you studied at University or in Formation ( Apprenticeship)

Ashtree · Oct 5, 2021

EU has a net truck driver shortage of 67 drivers per million population.
UK has a net truck driver shortage of 1492 drivers per million population.
EU should have a relatively easy task to get sorted.
On the face of it, assuming the UK numbers are accurate, it looks pretty impossible to resolve in a reasonable time frame.
Add in the UK need for a whole range of other workers, in agriculture, hospitality, building, and now banking, even the most dyed in the wool Brexiteer, has to ask if the “no furriners”, is a remotely sustainable policy.

honeyend · Oct 5, 2021

betweenthelines said:
The industry knew about the impending driver shortage 15 years ago and only reacted in the last few months, mainly by, as Baldy said, asking for overseas drivers to be allowed in. (Don't believe the stories about every haulier offering new recruits bags of gold to sign up either-there are national companies still trying to recruit with starting salaries of £20-£25k)

"Nights out" drivers are only a small percentage of the total HGV workforce and if the employers really wanted to improve conditions for these guys, they'd see what rates they could get for bulk booking rooms in the discount hotel chains.

Yes, the shortage of tests due to covid has had an impact but it's only exacerbated and existing shortage.

Where do they park their lorries, unless it's on a huge plot of land, and tarmac costs money, even most Travelodges would not have the space. and ground reinforcement? Then there is security, they often park in laybys with other lorries, with the back doors open, just so they will not get turned over. They are their own watchman.
I would gladly let someone park up overnight, but then you get neighbours and planning, its hard enough with caravans, and if you go that far you have spent more money than you would get with caravans.
Nights out may be a small percentage, but even our foodservice lorry that has a fairly set route starts at four, because once you hit the A14.M11 your could be stuck for hours. Its not a job I would want.

bluebell · Oct 5, 2021

im afraid many jobs are not good ? how about all the van drivers rushing round delivering all these goods we all now buy on the internet ? or the people who deliver the fastfood you now order from home? The other thing is various govts over the years by adding more rules and regulations for small companies on employing people has dicouraged small firms from employing more people? and the self employed person has grown? All the rules regulations and entitilments that employing people is all well good and the govt can pay and give there workers this? But small businesses struggling in the real world ?

Bald Rick · Oct 5, 2021

Ashtree said:
EU has a net truck driver shortage of 67 drivers per million population.
UK has a net truck driver shortage of 1492 drivers per million population.
EU should have a relatively easy task to get sorted.
On the face of it, assuming the UK numbers are accurate, it looks pretty impossible to resolve in a reasonable time frame.
Add in the UK need for a whole range of other workers, in agriculture, hospitality, building, and now banking, even the most dyed in the wool Brexiteer, has to ask if the “no furriners”, is a remotely sustainable policy.

Naughty boy. Boris has spoken only today at Conference. He says that he is not worried as the supply chain will sort itself out

And breathe

SteveHants · Oct 5, 2021

le bon paysan said:
We have this system here, works well. It's called BAC Professional. Daughters boyfriend did a BAC Pro.+2 . So 3 weeks paid work at a company and 2 weeks in tech. school. He's a qualified Welder, earns above basic pay.

The French Baccalaureate represents A levels. Bac +3 means you got a Bachelor at your University. Bac+ 5 means you got a Master (and +4 is Maitrise, I do not believe it exists in UK) In fact, the figure following "Bac" reflects the number of years you studied at University or in Formation ( Apprenticeship)

Sort of similar here:

Level 3 - foundation degree or similar
Level 4 - 1st Yr Bachelor's equivalent (HE cert or similar: HNC, Cert HE)
Level 5 - 2nd Yr Bachelor's equivalent (Diploma: Dip HE, HND)
Level 6 - BA, BSc, BEd etc
Level 7 Master's degree, Postgraduate Certificate (eg PGCE)
Level 8 PhD

Still Farming · Oct 5, 2021

SteveHants said:
Sort of similar here:

Level 3 - foundation degree or similar
Level 4 - 1st Yr Bachelor's equivalent (HE cert or similar: HNC, Cert HE)
Level 5 - 2nd Yr Bachelor's equivalent (Diploma: Dip HE, HND)
Level 6 - BA, BSc, BEd etc
Level 7 Master's degree, Postgraduate Certificate (eg PGCE)
Level 8 PhD

Time to retire after all of that???

SteveHants · Oct 5, 2021

Still Farming said:
Time to retire after all of that???

I have two at level 7 and am working on the level 8........ but it'll be a long slog.

Skills Shortage Will This Story Ever End?

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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