Strangely quiet about this..

Mek · Oct 19, 2021

If you read the post I was quoting someone else’s post,I did add with the no thought for their children or the country. Brexit has already cost the country billions and billions of pounds more than membership of the E U. The country has slipped in the wealth ratings while making itself a laughing stock worldwide. Now we are being told that it could be decades before any benefit comes to the population by Brexit. So in effect we could have decades of the country struggling to get back to the level we were at before the Brexit vote and then even more decades to make any improvements. And that’s only looking on an optimistic future.

BrianV · Oct 19, 2021

Mek said:
I’m not claiming I know what they voted for. I’m saying what I think they voted for. That it was not for the good of the country.

In my case I voted to leave as I didn't like the way things seem to be going with ever closer ties, more enlarging of the EU which would bring in more & more poorer countries with citizens who would far sooner live in the UK & also an ever diminishing UK influence on the EU's direction of travel!.
I voted leave because as a home owner myself I could not see with ever increasing numbers moving to the UK any way that the next generation could afford to buy a house when demand was constantly out stripping supply.
We can only hope that we are yet to see the benefit of lower numbers coming here in falling rents & house prices returning to more affordable levels, although I have to say I have no confidence in this government or the opposition in bringing that about as they both seem to want half the bloody world to live here!

robs1 · Oct 19, 2021

Mek said:
If you read the post I was quoting someone else’s post,I did add with the no thought for their children or the country.

I'm sure many voted for what they believed to be in the best interests of their kids and country, just because YOU think remain was in that interest does not make it any more true than me believing it was best for the future of both to leave, only time will tell.
it's just more remain arrogance that you cant see that fact, the usual old thick and racist arguments yet again.

Martin Holden · Oct 19, 2021

le bon paysan said:
Part of the problem was the government tried to play within the rules, putting out information that was agreed as correct with government departments and independent economists. The leave lot said anything they liked, didn't matter if it was a blatant lie. Once lies are out there they are easily believed by those who want to believe them but they remain lies.
If you heard that Pig farmer lady on R4 she said "This isn't the Brexit I voted for" .
And face it, the farmers were promised by Gove that the Subs would continue or be better and EU rules would be replaced by uk ones.
They've shafted you.
Tough

I agree, in any 2 sided matter the side supporting change always finds it easier to make their case. just look at Veganism - they have a head start as they are against the status quo. Much easier to fight for a change for the normal. just look at electric cars? Only today Bojo is backing the Green move - how are we going to generate all this electricity we will require? And what happens when electrically powered planes arrive? Best we discover how to catch and store lightning I reckon!!

Martin Holden · Oct 19, 2021

BrianV said:
In my case I voted to leave as I didn't like the way things seem to be going with ever closer ties, more enlarging of the EU which would bring in more & more poorer countries with citizens who would far sooner live in the UK & also an ever diminishing UK influence on the EU's direction of travel!.
I voted leave because as a home owner myself I could not see with ever increasing numbers moving to the UK any way that the next generation could afford to buy a house when demand was constantly out stripping supply.
We can only hope that we are yet to see the benefit of lower numbers coming here in falling rents & house prices returning to more affordable levels, although I have to say I have no confidence in this government or the opposition in bringing that about as they both seem to want half the bloody world to live here!

Exactly! Westminster doesn't fill me with any confidence to steer us through the next decade and beyond!

nivilla1982 · Oct 19, 2021

HatsOff said:
I'm curious, how do you feel about NATO membership?

NATO is a purely intergovernmental organisation functioning as a military alliance whose primary task is to implement article 5 in the North Atlantic Treaty on collective territorial defence.

bobk · Oct 19, 2021

BrianV said:
Unfortunately the problem we have with Brexit is when voting we were not given all the facts,
If we had been told at the time if we voted leave that :

Our cowardly prime minister would immediately run away,
The losing side would whine like babies for the foreseeable future,
Our incompetent MPs would pathetically argue about the result for the next 4 years,
We would next be lumbered with May who had coined the phrase "the Tories are the nasty party",
The Tories would be stupid enough to elect the incompetent fool Johnson to finally get us out.

Given all this information in 2016 no mater that to so many of us believe leaving the EU was & is the right thing to do given the way it was undoubtably heading at the time who amongst us can honestly say that given that information above they would have been brave enough to put his cross in the leave box.

Doesn't this shame our leaders in parliament because it really should do!

If there was another vote , Leave would win by a bigger margin imo , EU commission have shown their true colours since ,

bobk · Oct 19, 2021

Seeing this fiery debate in Strasbourg, you might wonder whether this so-called "Polexit" is a real prospect - given that it appears there are two very different legal, political and cultural perspectives set on a collision course.
But the resounding answer amongst those I've spoken to is no.
On the EU side, one diplomat recently told me they believed the EU couldn't survive another exit.
So there are huge political calculations to weigh up here, as well as legal ones.
Ursula von der Leyen is under mounting pressure to take action. It's a major test of her presidency.

BrianV · Oct 19, 2021

bobk said:
If there was another vote , Leave would win by a bigger margin imo , EU commission have shown their true colours since ,

Well seems the Swiss & Poles have just about had enough of it.

Danllan · Oct 19, 2021

HatsOff said:
I'm curious, how do you feel about NATO membership?

You surely can't be daft enough to infer that the EU and it's army-to-be is analogous to NATO, can you?

But you do seem to have accepted the premise that, despite persistent and obviously dishonest denials, the EU is intending to be have its own armed forces; that's good and rational and to your credit, many EUrophiles simply won't admit this.

I think the two questions I'd be asking - if I were in the EU, and certainly if I advocated the UK rejoining the EU - would be:

1) How can it be an 'EU' force if countries that declare themselves to be militarily neutral are EU member states; and, I think more importantly,

2) Who will be in command?

There can't be anyone unelected giving the order to fire, because that goes against all the supposedly democratic ideals of the EU. So that's UvDL out of the running and the EC, no democratic mandates there.

So will it be the Council then, or the EP? Which one? And if one is chosen - or both

- will it require a simple majority, a set majority of whatever percentage, or a probably unobtainable unanimity?

It is entirely farcical; for example... can anyone imagine the hitherto neutral ROI, safely sheltering behind NATO and the UK, sending its army to the arse-end of Romania when its own government, Parliament, MEPs and - most probably - people are all against so doing?

And this is supposed to be taken seriously with the EU as currently constituted?

bobk · Oct 19, 2021

BrianV said:
Well seems the Swiss & Poles have just about had enough of it.

See my next post

Danllan · Oct 19, 2021

bobk said:
Seeing this fiery debate in Strasbourg, you might wonder whether this so-called "Polexit" is a real prospect - given that it appears there are two very different legal, political and cultural perspectives set on a collision course.
But the resounding answer amongst those I've spoken to is no.
On the EU side, one diplomat recently told me they believed the EU couldn't survive another exit.
So there are huge political calculations to weigh up here, as well as legal ones.
Ursula von der Leyen is under mounting pressure to take action. It's a major test of her presidency.

the Poles a are very unlikely to leave any time soon, certainly not while the money keeps coming in. But the current furore really does give the lie to any fools trying to tell us that you can be a sovereign state while still a member of the EU. Again and again the EU's 'top' people make it very clear that it is supreme.

HatsOff · Oct 19, 2021

Danllan said:
You surely can't be daft enough to infer that the EU and it's army-to-be is analogous to NATO, can you?

But you do seem to have accepted the premise that, despite persistent and obviously dishonest denials, the EU is intending to be have its own armed forces; that's good and rational and to your credit, many EUrophiles simply won't admit this.

I think the two questions I'd be asking - if I were in the EU, and certainly if I advocated the UK rejoining the EU - would be:

1) How can it be an 'EU' force if countries that declare themselves to be militarily neutral are EU member states; and, I think more importantly,

2) Who will be in command?

There can't be anyone unelected giving the order to fire, because that goes against all the supposedly democratic ideals of the EU. So that's UvDL out of the running and the EC, no democratic mandates there.

So will it be the Council then, or the EP? Which one? And if one is chosen - or both - will it require a simple majority, a set majority of whatever percentage, or a probably unobtainable unanimity?

It is entirely farcical; for example... can anyone imagine the hitherto neutral ROI, safely sheltering behind NATO and the UK, sending its army to the arse-end of Romania when its own government, Parliament, MEPs and - most probably - people are all against so doing?

And this is supposed to be taken seriously with the EU as currently constituted?

Well it doesn't exist so those questions can't be answered.

But clearly most people are accepting of the principled of shared defence, just not if it is administrated by the EU.

I'm not saying whether I think it is a valid opinion to have or not, but it is worth accepting that shared sovereignty over defence is acceptable.

bobk · Oct 19, 2021

Danllan said:
the Poles a are very unlikely to leave any time soon, certainly not while the money keeps coming in. But the current furore really does give the lie to any fools trying to tell us that you can be a sovereign state while still a member of the EU. Again and again the EU's 'top' people make it very clear that it is supreme.

The EU have withheld the covid money to Poland ... 49 billion , could be the straw .

Danllan · Oct 19, 2021

HatsOff said:
Well it doesn't exist so those questions can't be answered.

But clearly most people are accepting of the principled of shared defence, just not if it is administrated by the EU.

I'm not saying whether I think it is a valid opinion to have or not, but it is worth accepting that shared sovereignty over defence is acceptable.

It has started to exist, and Macron and others are being ever more open about their intentions.

No argument with shared defence, it works. But... the emboldened section of your post, acceptable to whom - of do you need to rephrase that?

bobk said:
The EU have withheld the covid money to Poland ... 49 billion , could be the straw .

Possibly, but I think it will take all it can of that as and when, and as much as possible afterwards. Then, if the current government manage stay in or get re-elected, you may see a cassus belli resurrected.

bobk · Oct 19, 2021

Danllan said:
It has started to exist, and Macron and others are being ever more open about their intentions.

No argument with shared defence, it works. But... the emboldened section of your post, acceptable to whom - of do you need to rephrase that?

Possibly, but I think it will take all it can of that as and when, and as much as possible afterwards. Then, if the current government manage stay in or get re-elected, you may see a cassus belli resurrected.

is it contagious ?

Danllan · Oct 19, 2021

bobk said:
is it contagious ?

History would infer that...

bobk · Oct 19, 2021

A casus belli, sometimes abbreviated CB and meaning "cause for war" in Latin, represents a justification for war that is recognized as legitimate by other characters. A ruler must have a valid casus belli in order to be able to declare war upon another ruler and can only gain from a war what the casus belli specifies.

bobk · Oct 19, 2021

bobk said:
Seeing this fiery debate in Strasbourg, you might wonder whether this so-called "Polexit" is a real prospect - given that it appears there are two very different legal, political and cultural perspectives set on a collision course.
But the resounding answer amongst those I've spoken to is no.
On the EU side, one diplomat recently told me they believed the EU couldn't survive another exit.
So there are huge political calculations to weigh up here, as well as legal ones.
Ursula von der Leyen is under mounting pressure to take action. It's a major test of her presidency.

Moving on to the french elections ,seems Eric Zemmour is currying favour

If the language was violent, it wasn't unexpected. Many in the audience here knew him from his role as an outspoken TV presenter and commentator for the French right-wing channel C-News.
Sitting in the front row was Christian, who had driven from a nearby town with his family. He told me they'd never been to a political meeting before, and didn't belong to any political party.
But they liked Eric Zemmour.
"He tells it like it is," Christian explained. "He's more down-to-earth [than other politicians]. It's great he's shaking up the French presidential elections. I think he's a bit like Boris Johnson."
After the rally, I asked Mr Zemmour how he would do French-UK relations differently if he were president of France.
"I respect the British," he said. "They're a great people, who deserve respect. I think the European Commission in Brussels doesn't respect them. They never forgave them for Brexit."

le bon paysan · Oct 19, 2021

Strangely quiet about this..

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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