"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

Kiwi Pete · Oct 22, 2021

Fenwick said:
well, i fudged up total grazing this paddock.

View attachment 992840

It came out of sequence this summer while i was trying to keep up with the grass.

This means that it has had 60 days rest rather than the 100 days which it would normally have.

Went to see the cows who had empty bellies and lots of grass.

Actually took me a day to realise that it was due to the manure spots from the previous grazing (haven't had that all year).

So after feeling like a numpty after missing things so obvious I 've got them moving a bit quicker.

I'm might possibly maybe definitely perhaps lime it next year which will probably help (ph of 5.1 ).

Of course I could just give it the appropriate rest.

Anyone have any novel ideas as to getting things cycling quicker?

From what I know - and it isn't alot, as you can tell by my past couple of searching posts - the main things that will improve cycling is to have it cycling easier stuff?
You have the litter that's there "sitting", does that mean it's too old/brown/tough?

Perhaps, and this is just based on what we saw here, the grey/brown stuff just hangs around, because it's partly oxidised it almost hangs around waiting for the rusts and fungus to decompose it?
Whereas softer newer litter is faster, just as biochar is much slower carbon that sucrose is

This could be a reason

Another possibility is that your soil is covered and that you have stuff to break down, but not enough activity to break it down "yet", but that could all be coming with the wet season and infact your failure is a triumph? Because the soil can eat all winter long, instead of running out by the shortest day and then be vulnerable to weathering, erosion, extremes

another long piffle from me, what I am getting at is that you're just about to learn something, and we don't know what! Maybe it's the next big thing in the slowing down of your grazing, maybe it is a product of summer-dry causing unwettable qualities in your topsoil or dormant biology?

What I have seen firsthand happen here is just how unique all these paddocks are in how they deal with changes. Consider our land has had selective grazing, fertility transfer, overgrazing as a result of selective grazing, superphosphate and other salts applied. -then after 1½ centuries of this recipe, some bright young thing stops the partial rest and BOOM there is disruption, but then also a new calmness

Keep calm, see what happens is what I want to say. My neighbours would disagree, and say you need to apply products - some ammonia, or some lime, or some bio-digester thatchbuster... or something.
I wonder myself if there is ANY advantage of acting on it, other than making a conscious courageous decision to "just see what happens after this" and do nothing

we have a similar area, it was rested a good 6 months into winter and then grazed the same as the less rested pasture, and TBH it looks really sick. Grey where the rest is green, and I'm basing what I said to you from what I see there, I am interpreting it as a temporary acidification issue from simply having a whole heap of litter decomposing, ie I threw out whatever C:N ratio existed and put a lot of C there

thus it breaks down and in the anaerobic surface conditions (slicked-down cellulose) we have some very acidic byproducts coming out of that now. What I am hoping is that when it comes right, it will really be great - but it just isn't YET

Kiwi Pete · Oct 22, 2021

Treg said:
"Should be the best teacher " you ever had as we are more in tone with ourselves than anyone else ( we know our own desires and outcomes ) but takes more focus on yourself sometimes? Then there's the problem of getting blinkered.
Someone once said to me breeding cattle is 33% the mother, 33% the bull & 33% mother nature, running a farm / business is the same 33% the work we put in ,33% the landscape & 33% mother nature.

This is exactly 'it', while I love the hands-off approach it's bloody difficult to just watch things happen. Especially in the spring when things have a new dynamic, over the last couple of years we have been scratching for grass at this time and it's been a constraint on how we operate the place.

This spring I have a lot better handle on it but it leaves me even more aware that it's me who is the weakest link, not the grass or the cool slow spring, but how we respond to that. I'm looking at grass grazed a fortnight ago that is grazeable now, wondering where it all came from, and still wondering if we're doing rotational grazing or if our context has a voice!

A great problem to have, it will come to me what the best course is

Treg · Oct 22, 2021

Kiwi Pete said:
This is exactly 'it', while I love the hands-off approach it's bloody difficult to just watch things happen. Especially in the spring when things have a new dynamic, over the last couple of years we have been scratching for grass at this time and it's been a constraint on how we operate the place.

This spring I have a lot better handle on it but it leaves me even more aware that it's me who is the weakest link, not the grass or the cool slow spring, but how we respond to that. I'm looking at grass grazed a fortnight ago that is grazeable now, wondering where it all came from, and still wondering if we're doing rotational grazing or if our context has a voice!

A great problem to have, it will come to me what the best course is

Always pays to be flexible in your approach Kp and don't be afraid to be disruptive in your plans.
It's interesting to look out side farming to see how businesses are run and most successful businesses are flexible over the longer term and yet there are a few and I mean a few that never change fully focus on keeping their tradition and it still works !

som farmer · Oct 22, 2021

Kiwi Pete said:
I want to learn from myself/ what I observe

it's the only true (meaningful?) way to approach a complex problem

I got stuck on the "manage what you can measure" bit for so long that it was really hard to unlearn that fixation, ie "how much grass have I got" because it shifted me away from a truth - I have no grass, the landscape has it all

but you are right in what you say, the leaders in most of the grazing space have a reliable recipe for what they want to do (breed lots of calves cheaply off pasture) which is kind of more and kind of better - but it really has no relation to what we do or want to do

I also don't want it to all look so good that people subscribe to my youtube or buy my books or come to my seminars,, what I want is a business that I can be outside of (doesn't need an expert)

farming isn't a business, that at the end of a days work, you can shut the door, and forget about it till the next time you go there. My cousin say's, 'farming is only a way of life, if it keeps you fed', which is very true, but mostly ignored, we form a deep attachment to our little plot, coming up to the century here, It clouds the issues, by getting you 'involved'. Which in many ways, is great, but doesn't work quite so well, financially sometimes, we are slightly biased.
I can see nothing wrong in striving to improve our little plots, as long as we understand, utopia, is a long way away. We, ourselves, only have our plot, for a nano second, in the greater scheme of live, and the old saying, leave it better, than you found it, is a worthwhile dream, and ambition.
However, the last few generations, have nearly screwed it up, by innocently following flawed advice, so could our inner satisfaction be returning the land, to a more 'in balance', with nature ? I do not care, what anyone thinks of me, but l do care about how l would like, to leave the farm. As farmers, we have a massive extra boost in life, over the majority of other trades, we enjoy our work, we can 'alter' things, and see the results, we can change the landscape, control a lot of what we eat, the list goes on and on. Joe Bloggs, in his factory/office, has none of that.
The crowning glory, is, you can look at your farm, stock, and crops, and think, 'l did that', and as long as they look alright, it's great. The only problem, is we want it to look even better ! Modern farming, has taken the 'fun' out of the the job, always being pushed, to do more, which comes with the nightmare of red tape, banks etc, the more we move back to the 'natural' rhythm of nature, the more satisfaction returns.

Treg · Oct 22, 2021

som farmer said:
farming isn't a business, that at the end of a days work, you can shut the door, and forget about it till the next time you go there. My cousin say's, 'farming is only a way of life, if it keeps you fed', which is very true, but mostly ignored, we form a deep attachment to our little plot, coming up to the century here, It clouds the issues, by getting you 'involved'. Which in many ways, is great, but doesn't work quite so well, financially sometimes, we are slightly biased.
I can see nothing wrong in striving to improve our little plots, as long as we understand, utopia, is a long way away. We, ourselves, only have our plot, for a nano second, in the greater scheme of live, and the old saying, leave it better, than you found it, is a worthwhile dream, and ambition.
However, the last few generations, have nearly screwed it up, by innocently following flawed advice, so could our inner satisfaction be returning the land, to a more 'in balance', with nature ? I do not care, what anyone thinks of me, but l do care about how l would like, to leave the farm. As farmers, we have a massive extra boost in life, over the majority of other trades, we enjoy our work, we can 'alter' things, and see the results, we can change the landscape, control a lot of what we eat, the list goes on and on. Joe Bloggs, in his factory/office, has none of that.
The crowning glory, is, you can look at your farm, stock, and crops, and think, 'l did that', and as long as they look alright, it's great. The only problem, is we want it to look even better ! Modern farming, has taken the 'fun' out of the the job, always being pushed, to do more, which comes with the nightmare of red tape, banks etc, the more we move back to the 'natural' rhythm of nature, the more satisfaction returns.

I use to hate people saying it's a way of life & thought it was a excuse for making little profit, now I'm older and maybe wiser I get it & also realise how different/ lucky we are compared to " normal " people.

holwellcourtfarm · Oct 22, 2021

Treg said:
Always difficult to go on your own path when others are so adamant theirs is right & when the majority are doing things differently, but do we really learn from the majority or do we learn from the few?

I must be a sociopath then as I genuinely don't care what others around me think of what I'm doing or how I'm doing it....

Maybe it's just me...

Jonny B88 · Oct 22, 2021

Fenwick said:
Completely agree about the roots. To easy to forget about the bits we dont see.

As for the need of art. N. i'm not so sure, haven't had any for more than a couple of decades here.

Cows (this morning).
View attachment 992799

Heifers (last week).
View attachment 992800

Running similar stocking rates as the conventional boys over the farm as a whole and using far, far less diesel.

Very impressive! Out of interest what is your stocking rate?

Fenwick · Oct 22, 2021

Treg said:
most successful businesses are flexible over the longer term

Jonny B88 said:
Very impressive! Out of interest what is your stocking rate?

In france we use UGB which is a liveweight unit based on a 750kg cow in full milk production.

This includes all fields used in forage production, so grass, wholecrop maize etc.

I am at 1.5 for the farm as a whole and 1.85 for the cows paddocks where i have been concentrating my grazing efforts.

Organic farms here are around 1.3 - 1.5 with conventional farms being 1.6 - 1.9. But they are also using cereals or soja which are not used in the calculation.

I think it would be possible to reach 2 on my system on my farm if i did things better.

Crofter64 · Oct 22, 2021

som farmer said:
l love the NOT
but we will be forced down the 'climate change' route, by the 'enlightened'
perhaps we need to enlight ourselves, because all we have been discussing, leads to a cheaper system of farming, but not, perhaps, less profitable.
following that last point, could we say many have been seriously conned, by those that wish to live of our backs.
could it even mean, that what we sell, and complain about price, that price is correct, but it is the intensive way we farm, that makes it look so bad ?
into dangerous territory with that point, better dig out the tin helmet.

I’ve been reading the unofficial take on 30 by 30- the desire of the Biden administration, as well as other climate conscious countries around the world, to protect 30 % of the US lands and waterways by 2030. Sounds good, but it is basically an assault on the property rights of rural people( no urban land will be ‘ conserved’) .

30×30 – The New Liberal Land Grab | thenationalpatriot.com

www.thenationalpatriot.com

The assaults are coming from all sides- but climate change and growing population are great tools to bash us farmers with.

som farmer · Oct 22, 2021

the global efforts to 'solve' climate change, by guvs, is just hot, carbon heavy breath. I am sure the world is run, by immensely rich and powerful people, who manipulate the way countries are governed, to their advantage, if that was untrue, who would willingly elect biden, for his political influence, he is a liability to the states, but probably not to the cabal.
As always, with a large problem, lots of hot air, announcements, plans, and targets set, and never met, but the ordinary people will shoulder all the costs. The problem can only be resolved by all countries, and those that pull their strings, deciding to work together, and l wouldn't put any money, on that happening in the foreseeable future, love to be wrong, but sadly, l don't think l am.
So, we shall all sleepwalk towards a crisis, with very little we can do, to stop it. In democratic countries, any guv that actually brought in the detestable laws, to make it happen, they wouldn't get re-elected, and the cycle would start again. As for EX RE, or whatever they call themselves, just cause a nuisance, waste money, and drive people away from the subject.
All guvs, and their puppeteers, are probably banking on science, to provide the solution, and that is probably the only way, it will be solved, after all, the pot will explode, several generations, down the line.
I am a bit of a doom monger tonight, but expect nothing, and hope for the best !
In the meantime, l will farm quite happily, trying to improve our little plot, pleased that l have done a 'bit', to save the world.

Kiwi Pete · Oct 23, 2021

Alot of it is smoke, and mirrors

It's really "us", running our countries, and not "them" at all

the way we conduct our lives makes necessary regulations and rules and borders and barriers, and all the rest of it, because we never really be free while we have the illusion of "someone else pulling the strings and making us jump"

if we do the jumping, then own that sh!t! We're in control of jumping. Most of the jumping results from us, deciding to be jumpers.

Most of the farming results from people deciding to farm (not always the case) and not some order from above to do so, so we do need to take responsibilty for where we're at with that.

When I took responsibility for the fact that what we had been doing was creating harm, then the only option I saw was to let go of some of the stuff to reduce the harm, in the beginning.
Then I had to see another distinct possibility ahead that we could continue to function without the farming, which allowed and facilitated the shift to what we do now, which in it's own way is showing us where to go next

I think a fundamental problem is that we tend to look at what we do and lock it in, by saying "I am" and "this is", it's like the book I cannot write because it shares the reason that I cannot write it - it becomes fixed, and dies or diminishes by being nailed down

when you look at what is actually possible when almost all of our 43ha is doing the same thing at once then it becomes more than enough

when you look at 43ha through the view of being a commodity producer, then it really just is not enough, because it's built on a paradigm of "never quite enough"

if we see that 43ha isn't quite enough (eg we are going into drought) then we can change things in time that it is enough, and when it becomes too much then we can change things again

it's a dangerous level of freedom, but danger is where life is

Jonny B88 · Oct 23, 2021

Fenwick said:
In france we use UGB which is a liveweight unit based on a 750kg cow in full milk production.

This includes all fields used in forage production, so grass, wholecrop maize etc.

I am at 1.5 for the farm as a whole and 1.85 for the cows paddocks where i have been concentrating my grazing efforts.

Organic farms here are around 1.3 - 1.5 with conventional farms being 1.6 - 1.9. But they are also using cereals or soja which are not used in the calculation.

I think it would be possible to reach 2 on my system on my farm if i did things better.

Similar to a LU here then a livestock unit is based on a lactating dairy cow so a suckler cow is 0.8 or 0.9 if I remember correctly. Lowly stocked here would be 1-1.5. With some guys over 3 but they are in what is called derogation which puts restrictions on manure spreading and having to export a proportion of it. However nearly everyone winters in sheds here so thats why so high i guess.

Fenwick · Oct 23, 2021

Jonny B88 said:
Similar to a LU here then a livestock unit is based on a lactating dairy cow so a suckler cow is 0.8 or 0.9 if I remember correctly. Lowly stocked here would be 1-1.5. With some guys over 3 but they are in what is called derogation which puts restrictions on manure spreading and having to export a proportion of it. However nearly everyone winters in sheds here so thats why so high i guess.

Blimey, I think to get to 3lwu/ha here you would have to buy in feed.

3 LWU/Ha would mean producing over 16tons dm/ha/year on average across the farm. Most of the conventional maize harvests are around that. Grass is a lot less.

holwellcourtfarm · Oct 24, 2021

Jonny B88 said:
Similar to a LU here then a livestock unit is based on a lactating dairy cow so a suckler cow is 0.8 or 0.9 if I remember correctly. Lowly stocked here would be 1-1.5. With some guys over 3 but they are in what is called derogation which puts restrictions on manure spreading and having to export a proportion of it. However nearly everyone winters in sheds here so thats why so high i guess.

Fenwick said:
Blimey, I think to get to 3lwu/ha here you would have to buy in feed.

3 LWU/Ha would mean producing over 16tons dm/ha/year on average across the farm. Most of the conventional maize harvests are around that. Grass is a lot less.

Yes, there's a big difference between a summer stocking rate and an annual average one. Where livestock are fed over winter on bought in feed then the area that feed is grown on must be included for a genuine annual average.

som farmer · Oct 24, 2021

Fenwick said:
Blimey, I think to get to 3lwu/ha here you would have to buy in feed.

3 LWU/Ha would mean producing over 16tons dm/ha/year on average across the farm. Most of the conventional maize harvests are around that. Grass is a lot less.

well, you could always plough, and reseed, start to use N again...............................

Kiwi Pete · Oct 24, 2021

Fenwick said:
Blimey, I think to get to 3lwu/ha here you would have to buy in feed.

3 LWU/Ha would mean producing over 16tons dm/ha/year on average across the farm. Most of the conventional maize harvests are around that. Grass is a lot less.

My land would be destroyed with 16 tonnes of drymatter yield. Sure, I could bandage over it, but why create that problem, and then have one more wall in the way of "getting it"?

We can work with what we got (if you brung it, smoke it) to much better effect, because something created in the world of "needing more" is always gonna need more!

Create something from a world of abundance (as opposed to scarcity, or WW2, or wherever this world of "they'll starve if I don't" comes from), and whole new things can come from that.

But, as Einstein is quoted as saying, you just "can't solve a problem with the same thinking that made the problem", it's absurd to think otherwise.
Needing more is a trap, just like how they catch monkeys, the monkey won't let go of the banana to get his hand out, making it an effective trap because it uses the monkey against itself.

I think it would be very easy to grow more feed and run more cattle here, but what does that serve? If not the land, "me", but not really me either because I then have more work

Kiwi Pete · Oct 24, 2021

On a different note entirely, I forgot completely about "highlighter green" over the past months, which is quite confronting when you step outside and it smacks you

I am really enjoying the clear picture of "what we've got, in stock" rather than being filled with the noise of "have I got enough/too much/ where are we at?"

I have to say that I am really enjoying the experience of re-learning pasture plant physiology, now that there is room to do that. It was always the thing I wished I had more of, but was too busy to stop long because electric fencing, area calculations, and triple-guessing stuff got in the way of it.

Feels very "raw" to only have one decision to make, that is will I shift them or not

Henarar · Oct 24, 2021

Kiwi Pete said:
On a different note entirely, I forgot completely about "highlighter green" over the past months, which is quite confronting when you step outside and it smacks you

Do you mean the green patch ?

som farmer · Oct 24, 2021

Henarar said:
Do you mean the green patch ?

which colour green patch ?
Probably each farm has an optimum livestock, stocking rate, which has always been overlooked, the addition of varying amounts of fert, has adjusted to suit our wishes, easily.
While it's been easy to apply fert, to manipulate the s/rate, it presumably adds to cost of those extra mouths, fert cost is easy, it is the other costs, feed, vet med, sheer cost of stock, money borrowed/tied up etc, that we never really think about, never having done those sums, l don't know, l do know taking extra land on, adds an extra up front expense, that can seriously add up.
It's an interesting line of thought, do we actually make anymore profit, by artificially raising the stocking rate, by spending. Or, as KP has found, better grass management, allows you to do so, if you want to, without the expense ? Very certainly, improving soil, increases fertility, and better/targeted use of legumes, will further help that increase, could profitability actually increase, by not artificially attempting to raise it ?
We grew some corn, to help 'stock' our new ground, that, in return, has handsomely repaid for growing, 35/40 ton less conc to buy, plus the straw. So much so, there will be at least 25 acres going in, up from 14.
We have all been taught/brainwashed into a high cost system of farming, very little of that cost, being kept by us, it benefits the 'trade', which advocates it ! Somewhere along the way, there has to be a 'sweet spot' on our farms, that balances everything out, in our favour, trying to find it, though, might not be so easy, but certainly worthwhile, trying to find it, once found, l suspect a very large chunk, will drop off our imputs, and lift up the profit.

Kiwi Pete · Oct 24, 2021

Henarar said:
Do you mean the green patch ?

Yes, it's really difficult to put into words what looks so different about bright green right next to dark green, but having half of the farm occuring like that is quite a thing to smack you as you walk out the door.

"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

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