Class Q Conundrum

Esther Class Q

Member
Horticulture
Location
Worcestershire
Hi All,

My husband runs a 90 acre market garden farm and we have lived in a caravan on the farm for the last 4 years in the hope that we could potentially look at getting an agri-tied property but this just looks like a hopeless task as we don't have much in the way of livestock so don't think we would be eligible. To compound matters we've got a 2 year old and things are just getting a bit too cosy in the caravan for my liking.

We acquired an additional 6 acres about 5 years ago which had a livestock barn which is redundant for our needs and has purely been used for apple storage etc but is away from our main operational area so would be suitable for conversion as we don't need it. It would just about fit a small 3 bed dwelling within the existing steel frame structure.

We have sought planning guidance from a planning consultant who happens to be our friends dad, we haven't found him very responsive. I've just instructed an architect and structural engineer and he's just decided to drop on us that he doesn't think we can get class q. He has been involved with the project for about 3 years so i don't know why he's only decided to mention it now????

His advice is because my husband built a new irrigation pond about 2 years ago under permitted development rights we have now "used up" our permitted development rights and we would therefore not be eligible to apply for permitted development of the shed conversion. Frustratingly he knew we were digging the pond ect but didn't mention anything at the time. The pond is only about 100m away from the shed.....unfortunately i couldn't persuade my husband to wait till we'd submitted the application for the shed. The pond itself is fairly big 40mx40mx5m. I'm aware of the ecological associated with this.

If anyone has any thoughts on the matter it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Esther
 

Kidds

Member
Horticulture
Rules for class q are on the above link and permitted development work within the last 10 years does rule it out.
Was permission sought for the pond or was it just dug on the assumption PD rights allowed you to? If permission was sought it would likely have taken the form of 28 day notification procedure.
 

Esther Class Q

Member
Horticulture
Location
Worcestershire
Rules for class q are on the above link and permitted development work within the last 10 years does rule it out.
Was permission sought for the pond or was it just dug on the assumption PD rights allowed you to? If permission was sought it would likely have taken the form of 28 day notification procedure.
Thanks for this, nothing has been done to the barn in the last 10 years under PD just the pond aprox. 100m away from the barn.

I don't think my husband has ever put in a PD application in his life......he seems to think he's exempt from all rules!
 

Kidds

Member
Horticulture
Thanks for this, nothing has been done to the barn in the last 10 years under PD just the pond aprox. 100m away from the barn.

I don't think my husband has ever put in a PD application in his life......he seems to think he's exempt from all rules!
Did anybody apply for the pond in any way? It sounds like nobody did in which case they could in they make you fill it in again but it also means you have not used up your PD rights.
You need a new planning consultant but you also need to do a lot of homework for yourself. Reading the link I posted at a minimum. I am no expert but I am often left wondering what I pay the "experts" for, so called professionals are often everything but professional.
 

Andy26

Moderator
Arable Farmer
Location
Northants
Hi All,

My husband runs a 90 acre market garden farm and we have lived in a caravan on the farm for the last 4 years in the hope that we could potentially look at getting an agri-tied property but this just looks like a hopeless task as we don't have much in the way of livestock so don't think we would be eligible. To compound matters we've got a 2 year old and things are just getting a bit too cosy in the caravan for my liking.

We acquired an additional 6 acres about 5 years ago which had a livestock barn which is redundant for our needs and has purely been used for apple storage etc but is away from our main operational area so would be suitable for conversion as we don't need it. It would just about fit a small 3 bed dwelling within the existing steel frame structure.

We have sought planning guidance from a planning consultant who happens to be our friends dad, we haven't found him very responsive. I've just instructed an architect and structural engineer and he's just decided to drop on us that he doesn't think we can get class q. He has been involved with the project for about 3 years so i don't know why he's only decided to mention it now????

His advice is because my husband built a new irrigation pond about 2 years ago under permitted development rights we have now "used up" our permitted development rights and we would therefore not be eligible to apply for permitted development of the shed conversion. Frustratingly he knew we were digging the pond ect but didn't mention anything at the time. The pond is only about 100m away from the shed.....unfortunately i couldn't persuade my husband to wait till we'd submitted the application for the shed. The pond itself is fairly big 40mx40mx5m. I'm aware of the ecological associated with this.

If anyone has any thoughts on the matter it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Esther
I think you're fine, its only if you have done a Part 6 A (a) PD, I think digging a pond would come under Part 6 A (b).
 

Esther Class Q

Member
Horticulture
Location
Worcestershire
Did anybody apply for the pond in any way? It sounds like nobody did in which case they could in they make you fill it in again but it also means you have not used up your PD rights.
You need a new planning consultant but you also need to do a lot of homework for yourself. Reading the link I posted at a minimum. I am no expert but I am often left wondering what I pay the "experts" for, so called professionals are often everything but professional.
Hi Kidds, No sort of application was ever submitted. I did consider filling it up but unfortunately all you have to do is look at google images and it's very obviously there so it would be a bit suspicious if it suddenly disappeared.....unfortunately the satellite images have just been updates ergh!

Ironically i work in the planning sector but don't do anything related to agriculture, so have no experience myself.

We've paid a couple of thousands pounds to this guy and have gotten nowhere.

I've read through the Permitted Development order 2015 numerous times and keep thinking we meet all the requirements for a class Q conversion as I can't see anywhere that it says you can't proceed if you have already used Permitted Development rights elsewhere on the farm. I've chased our planning consultant numerous times and he's not come back to me yet unfortunately.
 

Andy26

Moderator
Arable Farmer
Location
Northants
Did anybody apply for the pond in any way? It sounds like nobody did in which case they could in they make you fill it in again but it also means you have not used up your PD rights.
You need a new planning consultant but you also need to do a lot of homework for yourself. Reading the link I posted at a minimum. I am no expert but I am often left wondering what I pay the "experts" for, so called professionals are often everything but professional.
Totally agree I did a Class Q or Class MB as it was at the time, engaged an agent who was useless wasted a year, ditched him and used an architect for plans and managed myself.
 
Last edited:

Andy26

Moderator
Arable Farmer
Location
Northants
I've read through the Permitted Development order 2015 numerous times and keep thinking we meet all the requirements for a class Q conversion as I can't see anywhere that it says you can't proceed if you have already used Permitted Development rights elsewhere on the farm.
(f)development under Class A(a) or Class B(a) of Part 6 of this Schedule (agricultural buildings and operations) has been carried out on the established agricultural unit—

(i)since 20th March 2013; or

(ii)where development under Class Q begins after 20th March 2023, during the period which is 10 years before the date development under Class Q begins;

That's where it says you cannot use Class Q if used PD rights.
 

Andy26

Moderator
Arable Farmer
Location
Northants
(f)development under Class A(a) or Class B(a) of Part 6 of this Schedule (agricultural buildings and operations) has been carried out on the established agricultural unit—

(i)since 20th March 2013; or

(ii)where development under Class Q begins after 20th March 2023, during the period which is 10 years before the date development under Class Q begins;

That's where it says you cannot use Class Q if used PD rights.
But digging a pond is an engineering operation which is Class A (b) of Part 6.
 

Esther Class Q

Member
Horticulture
Location
Worcestershire
But digging a pond is an engineering operation which is Class A (b) of Part 6.
I think the word "or" suggests that if you've done either 'a' or 'b' you have used up your permitted development rights......i could literally cry, all for a flipping pond. What's frustrating is the only reason the bond was built was because the environment agency contact us about building one to help with flooding downstream :cry:
 

Andy26

Moderator
Arable Farmer
Location
Northants
I think the word "or" suggests that if you've done either 'a' or 'b' you have used up your permitted development rights......i could literally cry, all for a flipping pond. What's frustrating is the only reason the bond was built was because the environment agency contact us about building one to help with flooding downstream :cry:
No Class B (a) is referring to agricultural buildings on holdings smaller than 5ha.

The pond is fine, if it referred to Class A (b) or Class B (b) then the pond would be a problem, but it doesn't.
 

Kidds

Member
Horticulture
Hi Kidds, No sort of application was ever submitted. I did consider filling it up but unfortunately all you have to do is look at google images and it's very obviously there so it would be a bit suspicious if it suddenly disappeared.....unfortunately the satellite images have just been updates ergh!
The pond is irrelevant, do not mention it again to anybody. As far as the planning department are concerned it is nothing to do with them as no plans were ever submitted so as far as they know it either always existed or never existed. Sack your consultant.
 

Andy26

Moderator
Arable Farmer
Location
Northants
The pond is irrelevant, do not mention it again to anybody. As far as the planning department are concerned it is nothing to do with them as no plans were ever submitted so as far as they know it either always existed or never existed. Sack your consultant.
The pond doesn't matter it's not Class A (a) or Class B (a) development.

Totally agree with sack the consultant.
 

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