"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
we get a continuation of elm saplings, when they get to 6/7 across, they die. Make good logs though, well seasoned. Those big old elms, were truly massive, some well over 100 foot high, sold all the decent trunks, some were hollow, but they were sods to split for logs, twisted and knotty, dad went out and bought a log splitter, in the end. We have got used to them being gone, plenty won't even remember them, 45/50 yrs now, but it is going to look very different, if, as it looks like, the ash goes as well. Oaks are in danger as well, l believe, so what can we plant to replace.
And when those ash go, we will get accused of 'prairie' farming, no doubt.
We have done a lot of hedge laying here in the last 20 years and would leave a nice ash to grow on for a tree rather than an oak as oak are very numerous here, really hacked me off having to cut down a lot of the trees I had left, why do we import these things, Britain is an island yet we seem to get everything going
 

Blaithin

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Alberta
So I’ve been working the early early shift at work and have had time to wade through the detritus of the Regen Ag Facebook group :ROFLMAO: f**k me.

Anyway, some bright and shining star has said I can’t be regenerative if I use dry lots or sacrifice pastures as those are not regenerative methods.

Ha. Hahahahaha.

There’s my opinion on that.

But for the rest of you, discuss? :)
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
So I’ve been working the early early shift at work and have had time to wade through the detritus of the Regen Ag Facebook group :ROFLMAO: f**k me.

Anyway, some bright and shining star has said I can’t be regenerative if I use dry lots or sacrifice pastures as those are not regenerative methods.

Ha. Hahahahaha.

There’s my opinion on that.

But for the rest of you, discuss? :)
ah, but, if you give those sacrifice paddocks, a nice long rest,........ you are regen !
this is what l hate about good ideas, like regen, they get hyjacked, and become a series of rules, which if you don't adhere to, you are not allowed in the 'utopian club'. I also dislike the 'regen or holistic' names, they make it sound a bit 'bunny hugger', which puts people off.
At the end of the day, it's all about sensible farming, looking after your soil, and sincerely hoping it looks after you. Modern farming, or even intensive farming, has their good and bad points, probably more to do, with the farmer, rather than the system.
The chronic need for food in/after ww2, led to all sorts of new 'things', but that need, for food, somewhere along the way, turned into a chronic need for CHEAP food, but no-one really told us, so, like mugs, we kept churning out cheap food !
And now, public opinion is against 'modern' farming, chemicals are 'bad', l wonder when they will actually realise, what they want to ban, is precisely what gives them cheap food.
On the other hand, some farmers, esp some on here, are having a quick lesson, in doing things properly again, and actually looking at ways to improve our farms, without much of the 'crap' we are pushed to use. I am not really sure how far we can actually go, with improving fertility, and decreasing chemical use, or where they balance 'out'. If you don't put all the chemicals on, you don't need to produce, to pay for them. I am also quite sure, it's a damn sight further than we think, not sure that we couldn't get to equal the yields, in a few years, now that would be something !!
Without looking back, l think it was @Fenwick posted about d/d rye/vetch, into older swards, to get a 'lift' in quantity and quality, an idea brought up into todays chat, with C/Seeds, looks interesting technique, just as an early application of N does. As l see it, the problem for us, as dairy, is early spring growth, prior to legumes, kicking in, and we are looking at 'things' to plant, in older swards, to improve first cut quality. The more we can achieve, the better, and perhaps, the more profitable.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
So I’ve been working the early early shift at work and have had time to wade through the detritus of the Regen Ag Facebook group :ROFLMAO: f**k me.

Anyway, some bright and shining star has said I can’t be regenerative if I use dry lots or sacrifice pastures as those are not regenerative methods.

Ha. Hahahahaha.

There’s my opinion on that.

But for the rest of you, discuss? :)
Animals fecking off somewhere when the grub runs out.... coming back at the right place at the right time for the right reasons.... yeah, that "can't be" regenerative, can it?

Personally, if you're free to act, it's a more regenerative way of being and doing and acting than if you're not free to be and do and act

What we think we might be trying to recreate, well IMO that's very open to interpretation, isn't it?
Wild animals were never "kept", so the very act of keeping animals creates the possibility of "not being regenerative" when it's understood that they really would just waltz in and out of our lives through the seasons if they could.

The moment we entertain that we can create something better, then "we are regenerative"

Making someone wrong, well that just isn't, and can't be. Stick that in their pipes Angie
 

Karliboy

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
West Yorkshire
I was pondering the other day something on the basis of all the vast areas of land that are grazed like the Australian out back American prairie anywhere with big areas and big numbers as such and then I thought about your plot to kp and thought the same even though it’s only small compared to the above and that all the beef/lamb whatever that is taken away from these areas every year, is it sustainable as apart from sunlight, carbon and dung piles here and there nothing is being put back to replace the kg off beef/lamb taken from the land.
I’ll openly admit my system is far from working as expected but I’m buying in circa 120tons of haylage and straw but only selling of around 50 tons of beef

So what I’m asking is, is even with all our soils working perfectly with long rest periods is it sustainable to remove more than we put back. Not that long ago the carcasses went back to the land to via one route or another but not any longer.
(I know daft question from a silly Yorkshire man 🙈😂)
 

Blaithin

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Alberta
I had to spell it right out for the poor dude. He just kept saying I had no clue what I was talking about. Meanwhile he admitted he’s never grazed animals himself but he’s talked to ranchers that do and THEY don’t use dry lots or sacrifice areas so they obviously aren’t necessary. He either got sick of arguing with me and just agreed to placate me or writing it down like 3rd grade science finally showed him the reasons.

I think I confused them saying feedlots have their purpose 😂 Roy seen some of the discussion, I’m sure he was enjoying some of the characters as well.
 

Blaithin

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Alberta
I was pondering the other day something on the basis of all the vast areas of land that are grazed like the Australian out back American prairie anywhere with big areas and big numbers as such and then I thought about your plot to kp and thought the same even though it’s only small compared to the above and that all the beef/lamb whatever that is taken away from these areas every year, is it sustainable as apart from sunlight, carbon and dung piles here and there nothing is being put back to replace the kg off beef/lamb taken from the land.
I’ll openly admit my system is far from working as expected but I’m buying in circa 120tons of haylage and straw but only selling of around 50 tons of beef

So what I’m asking is, is even with all our soils working perfectly with long rest periods is it sustainable to remove more than we put back. Not that long ago the carcasses went back to the land to via one route or another but not any longer.
(I know daft question from a silly Yorkshire man 🙈😂)
Want what I think is the actual point of calling it regenerative ag?

Plants regenerate. Soil regenerates.

By removing animals for slaughter you aren’t taking the nutrients away. The plants will regenerate and as they do, so do their little root pals like mycorrhizae, methanotrophs, prokaryotic, etc. As the plants cycle and die off and the bacteria and fungi cycle and die off, they have plenty of nutrition to support themselves. They don’t need a big dead beast every 50 feet to feed them. Some of the plants greatest nutritional needs is sun. The sun feeds the plants, the plants feed the tiny thingies, the tiny thingies suck sh!t out of the air and distribute it and end up feeding the plants their other stuff. Symbiosis at its best.

Grasslands evolved to be stripped with very little returned to them besides some poop and some stimulation. They will always regenerate.

The technicalities are how long it will take to regenerate. If you knock them hard and set them waaayyy back it will take them longer. If you’re nicer to them they regenerate much faster.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
I love this conversation 🥰

What stops things moving is when you let certain ways and words take over

"this is"
"I am"

when you decide for yourself that "I am this way" then you reduce the possibility of being different in an hour or a year, and it's the same with the concept of "this IS regenerative agriculture", you can't add a new thought to your book once it's in the hands of the reader

if we are the author of our journey, then this need to sell stuff to others and not look bad loses all significance and meaning, and so for me regenerative ag means staying hungry

if I was a 27 stone steering-wheel attendant then I may have a much different world view, and that's fantastic, we all have the same fundamental human problems and it's here where we learn those, in a safe space where "wrong" and "right" can be evaluated.

What this guy says is wrong, I see that as his own view as a product of his environment and being concerned about appearances, being mechanistic is our default setting
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Want what I think is the actual point of calling it regenerative ag?

Plants regenerate. Soil regenerates.

By removing animals for slaughter you aren’t taking the nutrients away. The plants will regenerate and as they do, so do their little root pals like mycorrhizae, methanotrophs, prokaryotic, etc. As the plants cycle and die off and the bacteria and fungi cycle and die off, they have plenty of nutrition to support themselves. They don’t need a big dead beast every 50 feet to feed them. Some of the plants greatest nutritional needs is sun. The sun feeds the plants, the plants feed the tiny thingies, the tiny thingies suck sh!t out of the air and distribute it and end up feeding the plants their other stuff. Symbiosis at its best.

Grasslands evolved to be stripped with very little returned to them besides some poop and some stimulation. They will always regenerate.

The technicalities are how long it will take to regenerate. If you knock them hard and set them waaayyy back it will take them longer. If you’re nicer to them they regenerate much faster.
just harvest the 'extra' over and above the soils need ?
 

Blaithin

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Alberta
just harvest the 'extra' over and above the soils need ?
If you pick fruit from the tree, it doesn’t suffer from deprivation.

Plants have weird evolutions. Especially if their primary source of procreation is rhizomous I’d think they would really like a trim and graze to help promote root growth and further spread.

Hand in hand with that, the soil likes the trim because it causes a temporary die back which kills some roots providing food and a path for water into it.

The relationships in soil and between insects, plants and soil beasties are so complex there’s no way to understand how they all work together. But obviously they do.

Cripple one and all the others get set back too.
 

Blaithin

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Alberta
What this guy says is wrong, I see that as his own view as a product of his environment and being concerned about appearances, being mechanistic is our default setting
I love reading, I’m all for reading and learning, but if your only source of knowledge is what you’ve read then you should not be so confident as to tell people what they’re doing is wrong.

Practical experience is priceless.

I don’t tend to read many regen authors. For sure not recently. Do any of them mention dry lotting or sacrifice areas? I feel like someone has to have written about sacrifice areas. Yet people keep saying “Read Greg Judy”, “Read Brown”, “Read Salatin”, like they're proof you can’t and shouldn’t use these tools. I would think Judy would for sure use them. Are they so busy preaching how successful they are that they don’t include times when scenarios aren’t perfect?
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
chemical fixes have only been a short term thing, introduced as the 'magic' for cheap food, they are now seen as 'bad'. The introduction of the norfolk 4 course rotation, raised food production greatly, and basically was looking after, and rebuilding fertility, of soil, looking back on it, it was so simple a change, it looks stupid, as to why, it was so 'great' an effect.
Sensible farming, with rotating varying crops, and with the advantage of modern 'science', that is so easy to see now, if you want to see it. For me, and l suspect many people that simply ignore it, it seems 'to good to be true', l mean, possibly increasing production, by spending less, and earn more profit, well, really ?
However, it could well be, that some of that, is possible, perhaps not increasing production, but maintaining yields, but reducing imput costs. I simply don't know how far one can go, but l intend to try and find out.
Perhaps the fact, that we are not worried about N costs, unlike many of our friends, is a sign that we have some confidence in the road we are walking, son's attitude, we'll keep a few less cows, if we need to, sums it up.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Bazinga!

People are so inauthentic, that when someone authentic comes along that person is given God-like status, because they're real

we can all be real, if we get complete with what happened, and what a thing that is

for example, my roundupped paddock, I'm not really happy that I got it sprayed... it feels like a
better way to do a wrong thing.

But, that's probably my own impression on what Dad might say about it, and he's dead just now,, so I can let an internet stroker make me bad for it..
I can make my own story up or, and here is where it matters: I can just own my decision
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Bazinga!

People are so inauthentic, that when someone authentic comes along that person is given God-like status, because they're real

we can all be real, if we get complete with what happened, and what a thing that is

for example, my roundupped paddock, I'm not really happy that I got it sprayed... it feels like a
better way to do a wrong thing.

But, that's probably my own impression on what Dad might say about it, and he's dead just now,, so I can let an internet stroker make me bad for it..
I can make my own story up or, and here is where it matters: I can just own my decision
bet you thought hard and long, before applying the 'dreadful' spay, but you did, and very likely the best thing thing to do, the right tool, time will tell.
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
I love reading, I’m all for reading and learning, but if your only source of knowledge is what you’ve read then you should not be so confident as to tell people what they’re doing is wrong.

Practical experience is priceless.

I don’t tend to read many regen authors. For sure not recently. Do any of them mention dry lotting or sacrifice areas? I feel like someone has to have written about sacrifice areas. Yet people keep saying “Read Greg Judy”, “Read Brown”, “Read Salatin”, like they're proof you can’t and shouldn’t use these tools. I would think Judy would for sure use them. Are they so busy preaching how successful they are that they don’t include times when scenarios aren’t perfect?
Seem to have to be "whatever" farmers now, whats wrong with just farmers?
Some seem to have to have a name for everything (as well as a number) and file it away in a certain place others don't
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
Seem to have to be "whatever" farmers now, whats wrong with just farmers?
Some seem to have to have a name for everything (as well as a number) and file it away in a certain place others don't
I'm happy to settle for a title of "Food producing landscape manager" in future....
 

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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