Two positively sinister things, an ocean apart...

Danllan · Dec 1, 2021

1) The EU's unelected boss 'suggesting' mandatory vaccination...

I've mooted compulsory jabs before and can see the arguments for both sides, but on balance am firmly against them. I've no problem with an elected politician suggesting them, because he can be told - electorally - to f^ck off. However, I do find it positively sinister when an unelected person the public cannot remove starts heading in such a direction.

2) The US Supreme Court looking at re-framing a woman's right to choose...

The delineation of power in the US means that, anyway, each time their Supremes make a decision outside of the Constitution, a state can keep legalising / criminalising whatever it wants in slightly different ways, pending a further SC judgement. But what is really happening here is a minority of the US's population, mostly but not all on the religious right, are trying to impose their ideology on everyone else.

Both revolve around the same absolute principle, both will probably have enormous consequences.

alex04w · Dec 1, 2021

Danllan said:
1) The EU's unelected boss 'suggesting' mandatory vaccination...

I've mooted compulsory jabs before and can see the arguments for both sides, but on balance am firmly against them. I've no problem with an elected politician suggesting them, because he can be told - electorally - to f^ck off. However, I do find it positively sinister when an unelected person the public cannot remove starts heading in such a direction.

2) The US Supreme Court looking at re-framing a woman's right to choose...

The delineation of power in the US means that, anyway, each time their Supremes make a decision outside of the Constitution, a state can keep legalising / criminalising whatever it wants in slightly different ways, pending a further SC judgement. But what is really happening here is a minority of the US's population, mostly but not all on the religious right, are trying to impose their ideology on everyone else.

Both revolve around the same absolute principle, both will probably have enormous consequences.

In relation to your second point, you dismiss the change as being on foot of a minority.

However these are changes being proposed / brought in at state level by elected officials. If that is the case, it cannot be by a minority.

Danllan · Dec 1, 2021

alex04w said:
In relation to your second point, you dismiss the change as being on foot of a minority.

However these are changes being proposed / brought in at state level by elected officials. If that is the case, it cannot be by a minority.

Oh yes it bloody well can!

br jones · Dec 1, 2021

alex04w said:
In relation to your second point, you dismiss the change as being on foot of a minority.

However these are changes being proposed / brought in at state level by elected officials. If that is the case, it cannot be by a minority.

similar to the vegan activists getting their way here ?

alex04w · Dec 1, 2021

On the subject of sinister, the following must be up there. Greece to fine the un vaccinated €100 a month.

Greece to impose monthly fine on unvaccinated adults over 60

Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis said the decision was difficult but necessary.

nypost.com

teslacoils · Dec 1, 2021

The thing about choice is that those who want to do something can, and those who don't want to can choose not to.

Ashtree · Dec 1, 2021

Two points here. Firstly USA. That there parish, is so utterly fukkkdd, divided, irrational, insane, screwed up, gone totally sideways, it matters not what happened there. The whole shooting match, is careering downhill so fast, it’s really only a matter of time before ….. well I’d rather not think.
Secondly mandatory vaccination. I’m in favour, but in a roundabout way. I favour access to hospital health care for Covid affliction, strictly based on vaccination status. If vaccinated, come on in, we will do all we can. If not vaccinated, you wait in line until a free slot becomes available. Also care for all critical conditions for the vaccinated should be prioritised before any care for non vaccinated, Covid or otherwise.

Danllan · Dec 1, 2021

alex04w said:
On the subject of sinister, the following must be up there. Greece to fine the un vaccinated €100 a month.

Greece to impose monthly fine on unvaccinated adults over 60

Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis said the decision was difficult but necessary.

nypost.com

Agree entirely, fining the elderly... it beggars belief.

Ashtree said:
...Secondly mandatory vaccination. I’m in favour, but in a roundabout way. I favour access to hospital health care for Covid affliction, strictly based on vaccination status. If vaccinated, come on in, we will do all we can. If not vaccinated, you wait in line until a free slot becomes available. Also care for all critical conditions for the vaccinated should be prioritised before any care for non vaccinated, Covid or otherwise.

I see your point and it has some merit, but it doesn't make it mandatory, there is still choice your way.

What has started in Austria and what has been mooted by UvdL has to be challenged / fought against, I am astonished that the Austrians are taking it so lightly.

For what it's worth I don't see this as a political matter, it's simply a fundamental aspect of basic human rights; and I'd condemn it anywhere, US, EU, here in the UK, anywhere...

Charlie Gill · Dec 1, 2021

Ashtree said:
Secondly mandatory vaccination. I’m in favour, but in a roundabout way. I favour access to hospital health care for Covid affliction, strictly based on vaccination status. If vaccinated, come on in, we will do all we can. If not vaccinated, you wait in line until a free slot becomes available. Also care for all critical conditions for the vaccinated should be prioritised before any care for non vaccinated, Covid or otherwise.

If you've got a qr code come straight in, if you've got antibodies you'll have to wait? Sounds fair.

Ashtree · Dec 1, 2021

Charlie Gill said:
If you've got a qr code come straight in, if you've got antibodies you'll have to wait? Sounds fair.

In ROI, you can get your QR code if you have had Covid. Do keep up old boy…

FonterraFarmer · Dec 1, 2021

Danllan said:
Agree entirely, fining the elderly... it beggars belief.

I see your point and it has some merit, but it doesn't make it mandatory, there is still choice your way.

What has started in Austria and what has been mooted by UvdL has to be challenged / fought against, I am astonished that the Austrians are taking it so lightly.

For what it's worth I don't see this as a political matter, it's simply a fundamental aspect of basic human rights; and I'd condemn it anywhere, US, EU, here in the UK, anywhere...

Think the Austrians are a bit slow on the uptake or just maybe they need a reminder of their past....

Charlie Gill · Dec 1, 2021

Ashtree said:
In ROI, you can get your QR code if you have had Covid. Do keep up old boy…

That's good news. I still think it's a step too far.

ollie989898 · Dec 1, 2021

Don't agree with mandatory vaccination, and the idea of the EU 'whoever' suddenly exercising 'his power' to make it a thing is most unpalatable. Don't agree with any back-door measures designed to effectively make vaccination mandatory, either. People have a right to choose what they will and will not accept done to their own bodies. If you restrict access to healthcare by any means you are undermining the point of healthcare as a free at source service. I can't legally discriminate on the basis of age, gender, or any other characteristic and neither should I be able to discriminate on the basis of vaccination status. Such ideas are ridiculous.

The Roe vs Wade thing was inevitable, I could have told you that the second the SC judge slot was up for grabs. Republicans have been wanting to change that law for years. Again, people should have a right to choose what they do with their own bodies. Believe me, if you remove a woman's right to choose, and make it impossible to access the means to have an abortion legally, they will take matters into their own hands which is something far more dangerous and terrible.

le bon paysan · Dec 1, 2021

Compulsory vaccination was first introduced in the UK – where no vaccines are currently mandated – through the 1853 Vaccination Act. The law required that all children ‘whose health permits’ be vaccinated against smallpox, and obliged physicians to certify that vaccination had taken place. Parents who refused vaccination could be fined £1.

Mandatory vaccination: does it work in Europe? - VaccinesToday

As Europe battles measles outbreaks, Italy, Romania, France and Finland are tightening their vaccination laws. The benefits are questionable.

www.vaccinestoday.eu

And in the US
Of the 16 immunizations the CDC recommends for children and teens, all 50 states (plus the District of Columbia) mandate diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis (whooping cough), polio, measles, rubella and chickenpox. In addition, every state except Iowa mandates immunization against mumps. (The diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis vaccines usually are given as a single combined shot, as are the measles, mumps and rubella vaccines.) Except for the chickenpox vaccine, which became available in the United States in 1995, all those vaccines have been around for 50 years or more

States have mandated vaccinations since long before COVID-19

Republican- and Democratic-led states alike already require hundreds of thousands of citizens to be vaccinated against various diseases.

www.pewresearch.org

kiwi pom · Dec 2, 2021

Ashtree said:
Two points here. Firstly USA. That there parish, is so utterly fukkkdd, divided, irrational, insane, screwed up, gone totally sideways, it matters not what happened there. The whole shooting match, is careering downhill so fast, it’s really only a matter of time before ….. well I’d rather not think.
Secondly mandatory vaccination. I’m in favour, but in a roundabout way. I favour access to hospital health care for Covid affliction, strictly based on vaccination status. If vaccinated, come on in, we will do all we can. If not vaccinated, you wait in line until a free slot becomes available. Also care for all critical conditions for the vaccinated should be prioritised before any care for non vaccinated, Covid or otherwise.

Once you've done that part we could extend it further. If you drink, smoke, do drugs, are fat, engage in any kind of dangerous sport, refuse to exercise or eat healthy you go to the end of the queue because we don't want you taking up beds needlessly when you could have avoided being here.
There you go, just fixed the NHS bed problem.

Oh and don't forget, back of the line if you haven't had your flu jab too.

Charlie Gill · Dec 2, 2021

Case for mandatory Covid-19 jabs for NHS staff 'not strong enough' | Nursing Times

The government’s case for implementing mandatory Covid-19 vaccinations for NHS staff in England has failed to address how the health service will cope

www.nursingtimes.net

FonterraFarmer · Dec 2, 2021

kiwi pom said:
Once you've done that part we could extend it further. If you drink, smoke, do drugs, are fat, engage in any kind of dangerous sport, refuse to exercise or eat healthy you go to the end of the queue because we don't want you taking up beds needlessly when you could have avoided being here.
There you go, just fixed the NHS bed problem.

Oh and don't forget, back of the line if you haven't had your flu jab too.

Jacinda's patched mates might take offence at that if you target that demographic, Nanaia ain't going to be happy about that too.

Gong Farmer · Dec 2, 2021

alex04w said:
On the subject of sinister, the following must be up there. Greece to fine the un vaccinated €100 a month.

Greece to impose monthly fine on unvaccinated adults over 60

Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis said the decision was difficult but necessary.

nypost.com

That's a shame because Greece was one of the nations most likely to tell her where to go.

Danllan · Dec 2, 2021

le bon paysan said:
Compulsory vaccination was first introduced in the UK – where no vaccines are currently mandated – through the 1853 Vaccination Act. The law required that all children ‘whose health permits’ be vaccinated against smallpox, and obliged physicians to certify that vaccination had taken place. Parents who refused vaccination could be fined £1.

Mandatory vaccination: does it work in Europe? - VaccinesToday

As Europe battles measles outbreaks, Italy, Romania, France and Finland are tightening their vaccination laws. The benefits are questionable.

www.vaccinestoday.eu

Yes, but... that was when vaccinations and medical science were in their infancy, our democracy was just past 'reform', the mass media was nothing like today, there were no 'social media', and they were dealing with a disease which - then - had a fatality rate several thousand percent higher than CV19.

The legal reality is that it hasn't been good law here since the 19th Century, and even during the last time the 'state' dictated to people - during conscription - there was a get-out via conscientious objection. Whereas, the suggestion from UvdL and the law in Austria is for mandatory compulsion.

Ashtree · Dec 2, 2021

I’m all for the “common good”, over what is at the end of the day, a tiny minority of selfish refuseniks. The same refuseniks, who at the end of the day, enjoy relative safety from Covid, given the huge majority who have done the right thing.

Two positively sinister things, an ocean apart...

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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